#152 Menopausal Leadership, Career Pivots and Gen Z with Barbara O’ Malley, Chief People Officer at Irish Life Group

Lucy Gernon (00:01.812)
If you want to learn more about how to be a more dive… Stop.

Lucy Gernon (00:11.052)
This is an episode of the 360 Leadership Podcast that is so valuable. In my, my God, sorry, Ali, cut.

Lucy Gernon (00:28.972)
In this week’s episode of the 360 Leadership podcast, I am interviewing Barbara O’Malley, who is the Chief People Officer at Irish Life Group. Barbara O’Malley is… Sorry, start again.

In this week’s episode of the 360 Leadership Podcast, I interview Barbara O’Malley, who is the Chief People Officer at Irish Life Group. Barbara shares her career journey and her career pivot from working in the financial services and accountancy background into HR, where she is now the acting Chief People Officer in this big organization. I want you to know that there’s so many things that are possible for you. That’s exactly what Barbara is going to share today. We talk all things career pivoting.

We talk about DE and I initiatives, menopause and so much more. Tune in and I hope you enjoy.

Lucy Gernon (00:01.058)
Hi Barbara, you are very welcome to the 360 Leadership Podcast. How are you today?

Barbara OMalley (00:06.755)
I’m doing well, thanks for having me, Lacey.

Lucy Gernon (00:09.014)
You are so welcome. We’re having a little giggle because we just had some lovely tech issues before we popped on, but we’re all good and we’re here now. So Barbara, you want to, all calm, do you want to introduce yourself to my guests? Tell us a little bit about you and what you do.

Barbara OMalley (00:17.389)
Yeah, all calm.

Barbara OMalley (00:25.699)
Yeah, sure. I am a mother of three girls, married to Aidan, who thankfully is a great cook, because I can’t cook. But in my private time, I like to do bit of gym work when I can, working really hard to get there three times a week at least. And in my work career, I started life as a chartered accountant a long time ago, over 25 years ago. And I haven’t ended up being a chartered accountant.

From there I moved into financial services, working in lots of different banks predominantly, lots of different roles, quite a squiggly career, I would say, working between audit, risk management, operations, programme management, change programmes, including cultural change programmes. And about five years ago, I left banking to join the insurance sector, working for Irish Life Group. First three years of my time there, I was the chief internal auditor.

But two years ago I pivoted into HR. And today I am the Chief Youth Officer for the group and really enjoying the role.

Lucy Gernon (01:32.698)
my goodness. So this is so inspiring. So let me just start by firstly saying you pivoted from, you know, having an accounting background to finance and now not only are you in HR, but you are actually the chief people officer of the company. So how did we do this, Barbara?

Barbara OMalley (01:49.347)
Yeah, yeah, it’s actually, I get asked this all the time, as you can probably imagine, but probably about three years ago, I started really thinking about what I wanted to do for the rest of my career, like thinking I probably had 15, 20 years to keep going. And I was thinking, am I growing? Am I learning? Am I developing in what I’m doing? Or is there more that I could do? And also a little bit like yourself, like what gives me joy?

you know, is this really giving me joy? I really enjoyed what I was doing. I joined a brilliant organization, Irish Life Group, really happy there, wanted to continue having a career there. But look back over my career and actually for the first time, I’d say, started thinking about what I wanted to do into the future and literally went down through all of the roles I’ve had because I have had lots of, you know, lots of different types of roles. And, you know, did a list of what I liked, what I learned and what I didn’t like.

And what became really, really clear from doing that, Lucy, and this is probably quite similar to yourself, there was a really strong red thread with regard to working with people, working with teams, developing individuals, developing teams, forming new teams, transforming teams, driving cultural change. And that was the part of all of the roles that I did that actually I got most excited about. That got me jumping up out of bed in the morning. So three years ago, I took the boat.

bold step of walking into the Chief People Officer’s office at the time, Theresa Kilmartin, and asked her, how do I pivot into HR? How could I do your role in the next five years? And she looked at me, smiled, and we had a really great conversation. And thankfully, really supported by Theresa, you know, through mentoring and coaching. An opportunity did come up about a year later, which I applied for. But I’m going to be really honest with you. You know, when you have those wobbles,

Lucy Gernon (03:34.652)
Mm -hmm

Barbara OMalley (03:41.443)
And you think, my god, what am I doing to myself? I’m doing a great job where I am. I could quite happily continue doing it. What am I putting myself through all of this for? Going into a new area where I don’t have all the answers. I don’t know everything. But I was really lucky at the time I was doing a leadership development course with the organization at Harvard. And we were getting some personal coaching. And one on one time. And through those kind of conversations and reflections,

I was able to kind of conclude, actually had a lot, I acquired a lot of skills over the 25 odd years of working that were really transferable and could bring, you know, hopefully some value to the HR function. And so, and the bits I didn’t know about, I was kind of OK with, I was thinking I can grow, learn and develop. And that was the whole reason for moving was to continue to grow, learn and develop. So I kind of.

Lucy Gernon (04:27.572)
was kind of okay with I was thinking I can grow, learn and develop and that was the whole reason for moving was to continue to grow, learn and develop. So I kind of gave myself that last push and took the place that applied to the job and was successful in getting it and spent a better year into the and the opportunity.

Barbara OMalley (04:34.711)
gave myself that last push and took the brave step, applied for the job and was successful in getting it. And then about a year into the role, the opportunity to become Chief People Officer came up and luckily I was encouraged and supported and I applied for that and was successful. So yeah, so I’m a year into the role, still learning, still growing and definitely still developing.

Lucy Gernon (04:52.679)
Wow.

Lucy Gernon (04:58.656)
my goodness. Wow. Like, that’s such an incredible story. And I’m wondering, first question that was coming to my head was, did you need to go back and do another course? Did you need to take a degree in HR?

Barbara OMalley (05:13.259)
No, no, I did have those kind of conversations around whether I should go back and do something. And to be honest, one of the things I’ve always done throughout my career is did lots of courses like I’ve done masters in risk management, you know, very late in life, actually just before I gave birth to my first one. Second, you know, I’ve done certified director courses. And when I had the conversation around do I need to go back and do some sort of degree or diploma or something, the advice was no.

But what I would benefit from, and this is probably as a result of what comes with the role, was to do an actual executive and leadership coaching diploma, which I just completed there back in May. Because I suppose the role that you have as the Chief People Officer, it’s all about working with your colleagues, actively listening, not always jumping in with the answers. And I am a talker by nature.

So it was probably going to serve me well to do some sort of program like that. And other things I do is lots of reading, lots of seminars, webinars, you name it. I do a lot of that in my personal time and through work. And I do it because I enjoy it as much as anything else, to be quite honest. So that’s what I did.

Lucy Gernon (06:30.679)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (06:35.648)
So I really love this guy. So if you’re multitasking, please come back to me. Barbara has just shared that she was able to get to C level in her organization without going back and doing a specific degree in that area because she already had the transferable skills. You had done the courses. It sounds like you had all of the drive, the experience needed. And I think that’s one of the biggest myths that I would hear a lot from women is I think I need to do another degree.

or I think I need to do another course. And I’m like, no, you need to work with a coach. That’s usually the way forward. What would you say about that?

Barbara OMalley (07:12.859)
I completely agree because as I said earlier, when I was having those wobbles, it was working with a coach, talking through some things that actually gave me that, that encouragement and that push to actually believe that the skills I had were really transferable. And, know, I didn’t need to have all the answers and being in a leadership role isn’t about having all the answers. You know, I’m surrounded in the HR function by really experienced colleagues, but also experts in their fields.

Lucy Gernon (07:26.978)
Mm.

Barbara OMalley (07:40.439)
And you’re not expected to know the ins and outs of every nuance of that organization, part of the organization. But it’s about leaning into the experience that’s around you, seeking out the help that you need, and growing and learning from that. So yeah, it’s completely great. Go for it, is what I would say.

Lucy Gernon (07:57.962)
Yes, so inspirational. I love what you said about the you did your list of things that like that you that you enjoyed. can’t remember. think you said three things. You said like learn and something.

Barbara OMalley (08:08.813)
But I like what like learn and not like so much. And there were a few, few moments like that in my career, you know.

Lucy Gernon (08:14.764)
So when you say like, obviously that’s the things that you enjoy, what’s the learn piece? What went into that column?

Barbara OMalley (08:20.973)
The learn and stuff like I would have to say when I was a young one, thinking I knew everything like I did. I was probably a little bit impatient. So I learned how to be more patient with regard to driving change and delivering on the outcomes that you’re aiming for. I learned, can go on your own quickly, but you go further together. And basically, so it’s really important to spend time working with the people around you.

Lucy Gernon (08:46.368)
Hmm.

Barbara OMalley (08:51.083)
and actually formulating a plan. That’s not just your plan, it’s our plan and getting that different diversity of thought into the room and coming up with the best plans that you can to drive the right outcome. And to be honest, that’s when you get people to buy in to what it is you’re trying to do. But I would have been quite impatient and I probably learned the hard way in some instances to kind of temper that a little bit. I’m probably still impatient sometimes people would tell you about.

Lucy Gernon (09:17.25)
Meet your sister, I hear you.

Barbara OMalley (09:19.267)
But I try, I try, I try, I try to be really balanced. Yeah, I’ve learned a lot, lots of other stuff like not giving yourself, your entire self to the job. You know, early on when I had, so I have three girls, but the 18 year old is my stepdaughter, So I had my first baby, Clara, in 2013 and I was doing a really, really tough job. I was doing silly, silly hours.

And then a couple of years later, I went into a different job and was doing it crazy hours at the time when I had my second child. And I turned around and my husband was going through cancer at the time. And I turned around and said, I can’t do this. I just can’t do it. And he was brilliant. Like I have to say, and I’ll probably get a little bit upset even thinking about this, but I remember him sitting on the couch going, what are you doing to yourself? Stop, you know, stop that job. Go in tomorrow and tell them you’re not doing it anymore.

And just by having that encouragement and support, I remember going in and having the conversations and then navigating a way out of that particular role into a role that actually suited me better and lent itself to putting boundaries around me a little bit more and ensuring that I time for the family. I was getting out at a sensible hour. I wasn’t doing crazy errors because all the research will tell you, know, the law of diminishing returns, you know, the longer hours you do does not mean you’re more productive.

Lucy Gernon (10:47.682)
Absolutely.

Barbara OMalley (10:48.067)
So yeah, so lots of learnings throughout my career.

Lucy Gernon (10:54.376)
So like I was just visualizing you like with your husband and I’m sorry to hear that he was unwell. And then obviously, you you had your daughter as well and you were juggling all of this stuff in your personal life, which is like so common for women. Right. We we are we are naturally the nurturers and we care so much about everyone. We care about our jobs. We care about our families. And then you had the courage to actually say, no, I don’t want this. So if there’s people listening today who feel maybe like

If there’s something wrong with me. So what I hear I’ll back up a little is like, it’s nearly like a pride thing that there must be something wrong with me if I can’t do this job. So I’ll just work harder and longer. Whereas actually, it’s usually the role or it’s the structure or it’s it’s the way roles responsibilities are, you know, divided. What advice would you give to somebody who’s feeling like that?

Barbara OMalley (11:40.425)
Yeah.

Barbara OMalley (11:46.003)
the advice somebody gave me a long time ago was to be true to yourself. For me, values are being values that are really, really important and being in either a work situation where your values are misaligned can be really a really painful position to be in. And, no matter how much you you kind of try and lean into it, it’s not going to work. So actually, sometimes you just have to be prepared to kind of say it’s not for me, actually.

but something else might be for me over here in the organisation. And it is really important to look after yourself because you’re not being at your best when you’re in those situations. You’re nearly fighting against the tide, Lucy, sometimes. So I think it’s to be brave. Now, that’s easy to say. We all have mortgages. We all have bills to pay. So it’s about finding a way out and leaning into people in your network, seeking advice.

Lucy Gernon (12:16.428)
Mm.

Barbara OMalley (12:44.023)
getting coaching from people you can talk to or mentoring from somebody and seek the help that you need in those situations. But it’s not going to get any better by staying in that situation, I think. So, yeah.

Lucy Gernon (12:54.039)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (12:58.56)
Yeah. And like just as you were saying that, I remember a memory was coming to my mind when I used to work in the pharmaceutical industry, like there are certain jobs that are just by nature. They’re extremely tough. And I remember my boss saying to me, God, there’s some lovely jobs in this organization. You that was our phrase. Like there’s some lovely jobs here because in every organization, there are jobs that have, you know, they’re they’re higher impact, but the actual time commitment or the.

Barbara OMalley (13:16.579)
Mmm. Mmm.

Lucy Gernon (13:26.634)
energy investment might be less. So like what would you would you agree that like maybe like where would you say to start looking in your current organization? Would you say to start looking externally?

Barbara OMalley (13:29.027)
Mm.

Barbara OMalley (13:38.155)
Yeah, I always encourage people to start maybe in their own organisation. Like the grass isn’t necessarily greener. Like as you said, all organisations have different types of roles that are available and organisations like Irish Life Group and others, they have multiple areas you can go into. Like I feel like I have a whole new career having moved into HR and there’s lots of other opportunities like that throughout the organisation. Like we don’t just do

Lucy Gernon (14:00.714)
Mmm.

Barbara OMalley (14:05.901)
We don’t just have factories and accountants. have actually an innovation hub. have huge marketing teams and proposition teams who do some really awesome stuff. Our sponsorship, if you see the Irish Life Group Marathon, like really great work. So there’s plenty to look into, but you do need to lean into the network. You do need to seek out those opportunities. You do need to be quite driven and you need to drive your own career in order to find that.

And all it takes is just being a bit brave and walking into someone’s office saying, how do I do that job in five years time or whatever time frame? Yeah, it’s a little bit like that. No, I wouldn’t be. I wouldn’t be. No, I wouldn’t be. In fairness, I put it into the chief people officer’s mind that actually Barbara is interested in a move into HR. So then when opportunities came up to get involved in different things, she would think of me.

Lucy Gernon (14:37.91)
Just like you did, right? I mean, you literally wouldn’t be sitting here unless you had the courage to have that conversation.

Barbara OMalley (15:00.503)
And then when the role came up in her area, she put it in front of me and said, you should apply. But if I hadn’t have done that, that opportunity she would have passed me by, to be quite honest. So you have to be a bit cheeky sometimes, maybe. Because I did feel a bit cheeky walking in asking.

Lucy Gernon (15:08.93)
Hmm.

Lucy Gernon (15:13.458)
Yeah. But I think it’s about, you know, I talk a lot about self -advocacy, like I think, you know, they’re to generalize now, but like men are a lot more confident in advocating for themselves and their careers and what they want and showcasing their strengths. And women, think, by society, we were always taught to be good and to be humble and not brag. But actually, it really does not serve us because

You know, I’m on a mission to empower women in leadership with the tools to support them to actually make leadership in life so much easier, because it’s it’s just about advocating for yourself. We cannot stay in the background because women are needed. Right. And that brings me on to like the the topic, maybe of like diversity a little bit. So what are Irish life or what are you guys doing in the E &I space now? Where to start?

Barbara OMalley (15:54.23)
Absolutely.

Barbara OMalley (16:03.775)
God, are doing, yeah, there is a little bit of that. Like I might give you a highlight, but there’s lots going on in our organization. And the great thing is it’s very leader led, like from our CEO and our leadership executive team. Huge sponsors of anything that we do. So much so it’s enshrined in our strategy. Like in there is the language, you we want to create an inclusive work environment where people can thrive.

They’ve invested in resource, dedicated resource to DEI. It’s enshrined in people’s objectives, people leaders’ objectives, that they need to drive the right outcomes. We have measures in place that are reported to our boards and tracked. But more than that, it’s, you know, and we’ve a fantastic DEI team led by a lady called Mags Gribbins. And I think she is the energy of a Duracell bunny. I don’t know how she does everything that she does, but she’s such a great passion for it. She’s nearly brought the entire organization along with her and she’s phenomenal.

But our employee resource groups, I think, is where some of the magic actually happens. these are, know, resource groups are volunteers who want to make the difference, who want to make that change and see that change. So we have six in total. And one of the employee resource groups came up with our Life Matters policies recently, which we’re all particularly proud of. Basically, probably back in 2019, 2020, we did a bit of research, which was led by some DCU students.

who wanted to just kind of go out to our employees and see what else were we missing. We already had some great benefits around sabbaticals, enhanced maternity leave, parental leave and other things. But we were like, what more do we need to do? And that research actually showed that we had a big gap around caring responsibilities. And as you know, with an aging population, in five of us, I think, are going to be carers by the year 2030. And also what came out of that research was about 52 % of us

Lucy Gernon (17:59.906)
we % of us still have that struggle jizzle.

Barbara OMalley (18:01.091)
you know, have that struggle juggle, you know, between whether it’s looking after kids or relatives, et cetera. So from that, we launched our caring employers program, working with our partner, Cares Ireland. And lots of work happened over that space. But the employers group, the employer resource group and the family employers resource group actually said in 2022, said, we want to do something more. We want to really kind of push the boundaries on it. And they actually came up with what I thought was a brilliant concept of

being there in those moments that matter, being there for irrespective of the moment, because we all go through different changes in our lives. Some are inevitable. Some may just be foisted upon us. So it was a range of stuff from surrogacy, fertility, domestic abuse. There was 10 in total. And they launched that series through 2023. And it wasn’t just about providing annual leave. It was about creating the awareness.

Lucy Gernon (18:33.375)
Hmm.

Barbara OMalley (18:57.811)
and it was by putting in place manager and guides and training managers on how to have those delicate conversations. And it was actually just start the conversations more than anything else. Like traditionally taboo topics, you know, we’re now being discussed and talked about. And that was really, really important. And, you know, we we do track and manage, we do track and measure how we’re doing in our DI. We have a DI measure as part of our annual survey. So that has been incrementally going up, even though it’s actually at quite a high level.

But we’re improving all the time and we’re continuing to aim high on this, like because there’s so much more work to do. And you know this Lucy, through the work that you do, you know, we’re still underrepresented at senior female levels. we have our board balance where we want, know, we’ve met our targets with regard to our board, but we still a lot more to do with regard to our female leaders. So it’s really, really important that we continue to encourage people, you know, in this space.

Lucy Gernon (19:31.663)
Hmm.

Lucy Gernon (19:50.694)
And like what what impact have you seen? So, I mean, firstly, I love to hear that life matters, the kind of that whole slogan, because I think, I mean, especially with the the younger generations coming up behind us, you’re probably seeing and hearing this too, like they they care way more about living their lives and their careers and they’re happy to walk out the door. So if companies don’t actually start to think about people’s lives, you know, they’re not there’s not going to be businesses. Right. And

Barbara OMalley (20:08.545)
Yeah. Yep.

Barbara OMalley (20:17.825)
No, no, no.

Lucy Gernon (20:19.616)
Like what are you seeing in that space actually? curious.

Barbara OMalley (20:22.659)
Yeah, actually was about, god it must be 15 months, we actually set up an advisory board with our Gen Z group because we’re quite well represented at the Millennial and Gen X group and Baby Boomer, but like they were an underrepresented voice maybe at the decision making forum. So we set up a group of those individuals to start helping us shape some of the decisions that we were making across the organization. And I have to say,

Lucy Gernon (20:47.02)
Amazing.

Barbara OMalley (20:51.041)
they have been phenomenal to work with. The way they think, because they do think differently, they’re digitally native and the way they consume information, digest it and then present solutions. They’ve given us some really great ideas with regard to some of the stuff we could do. They’re working on some of our early careers program work now at the moment so that we can at least ensure that we’re attracting our youth. But what really comes across

when you work with them is they do want to be connected with a sense of purpose. They do want to know that the work that they do adds value and not just to their pay packet, but actually to the wider world and society. And for us in Irish Life Group, we actually have a vision to be a driving force behind Ireland’s financial, physical and mental wellbeing. And that’s not just for our customer base of 1 .5 million customers, it’s actually for broader society. So that’s the way in which we have set out our plans for the next number of years.

and the energy that’s going in behind that is unbelievable and people like our Gen Z Advisory Committee are influencing that agenda and they’re great to work with.

Lucy Gernon (21:59.5)
That is a fantastic idea. So, ladies, if anyone is like listening, I think that’s probably one of the most valuable things I’ve heard in a while is like set up that Gen Z advisory committee, because if you think about it, obviously, at senior leadership, you’re going to have a lot more, let’s say, older people like us and beyond who are sitting there. But actually, like if you look at the market, you sort of like that portion is not represented. And I’m just thinking I met a girl the other day at one of my events, actually, and she was sharing how

she has progressed really, really quickly in like, say she’s in her career seven years and she’s progressed very, very quickly to a level where most of her counterparts would be say in their 40s. So she’s only probably in her early 30s. And she’s really finding it challenging to be taken seriously because of her age. And it just, think it’s very disappointing because I think as older people like us, I think we probably need to like shift our mindset around, you know, age.

Barbara OMalley (22:38.967)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (22:55.168)
Like I know we say age doesn’t matter, but it really doesn’t when it comes to listen to new ideas and new concepts.

Barbara OMalley (23:02.083)
And you have to remember, these are our customers of the future as well. They represent that cohort. It’s a growing cohort. 60 % of our workforce is Gen Z and millennial. we have to make sure that the propositions and services we’re developing. I’ll share with you, when I worked in Ulster Bank, they did this wonderful program. And Cormac McCarthy was the CEO at the time, and they called it the leader teacher.

And he would go out and he would use language like, can learn from you and you can learn from me, irrespective of what role we play or what part we play in the organization. And I thought that was a great philosophy and that’s really stuck with me. And I’ve kind of, I’ve kind of used things in my roles to actually unearth and unpick and get those ideas and those gems from people. Cause I remember being at a session once and it was actually a real eye -opening moment for me. Really experienced people, you know, probably much older.

and some young people in the room. And we used these kind of techniques to get different views around the room. And there are these agile cards. I know I’m going into detail, but basically you score your response. So basically everyone puts up the cards and if we’re all about the same, we move on to the next kind of decision point or next kind of conversation. But when you have a divergence of views, someone at one end of the spectrum versus someone at the other, you actually stop the conversation and you go to the different people and say, can I have your view? Can I have your view?

Lucy Gernon (24:06.826)
No tell us we like detail, tell us.

Barbara OMalley (24:27.851)
Remember, we were discussing something that was in relation to risk management. And this much less experienced, really quiet young girl, and she’s doing very well in her career now, I see, but really quite young girl actually had a contrarian view to the more experienced people in the room. And by the time she finished what I was facilitating, I said, so do we all want to rethink our position? And they all actually went in behind the decision of the less experienced person, so to speak. And I remember thinking, wow, like,

You know, we all have that’s the importance of having that diversity of thought in the room and that diversity, you know, it can be age, can be anything like your background, whatever. But you should open up the conversation to allow it happen or else you’ll miss opportunities. You absolutely miss opportunities and great nuggets. Best ideas come from from places. No, I was just going to say the best ideas. Somebody I was at a thing on Friday and Jack Cavanaugh and he said little keys open big doors like.

Lucy Gernon (25:12.158)
Absolutely.

Lucy Gernon (25:17.376)
So can we, go on, sorry.

Barbara OMalley (25:27.213)
So it’s creating all those little moments, you know? Really important, yeah.

Lucy Gernon (25:29.919)
Love that. So can we double click on this, these agile cards? Because I know some of my listeners are going to be like, OK, so tell us a little bit, like, let’s say somebody doesn’t have, you know, an agile coach or they don’t have that in the organization or they don’t have an initiative. If somebody wanted to even go and begin to try and propose something like this that they could maybe do themselves, like how might they go about implementing?

Barbara OMalley (25:34.634)
yeah!

Barbara OMalley (25:42.144)
Yeah.

Barbara OMalley (25:52.631)
Yeah, can, you can absolutely. So are you talking about agile, philosophy, frameworks or agile cards? Just so I’m clear. Okay. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Literally you can get them online. You just look them up. Agile poker cards. think they’re called literally get them online. And when you’re setting up your session, it’s like, obviously depending on what you’re facilitating, it usually there’s questions and usually you want to reach some sort of conclusion. And we spend a lot of time talking about stuff we already agree on.

Lucy Gernon (25:59.116)
The cards for the meetings, I’ll say in terms of like what you did at that meeting.

Barbara OMalley (26:21.759)
I don’t know if you’ve noticed that in meetings and they can be highly inefficient as a result. Whereas by using agile cards, it lets you go through the decision points that little bit quicker. And then, know, when there’s a divergence, you can just focus on that. You stop the conversation and free it up for the conversation around where there’s that divergence of thought so you can hear the different views. And it’s as simple as that, Lucy. It’s like a genuine to use that technique. Obviously, you know, you need to create the right environment.

Lucy Gernon (26:41.694)
Amazing.

Barbara OMalley (26:50.763)
And you maybe need to ask people to trust you when you’re using them and just to go with the flow, have a bit of fun because it can be fun as well. And it’s probably a good good one to start practicing with in a team environment where you’re doing some sort of operational improvements or you want to look at some areas to improve team dynamics or something, just something a little bit more local to get used to it. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (26:57.364)
Bye.

Lucy Gernon (27:12.392)
Amazing. Yeah, that sounds like a great, a great plan, a great way to start. So girls, you’re welcome for anyone who I know who’s going to who’s going to take that one up. OK, so just moving off the topic of Gen Z and moving on more to women of a certain age who are maybe perimenopausal or menopausal. So I know the reason I reached out to you is I saw that you I think you did a post something around, you know, the work that you guys were doing in this space to support women. So do you want to share a little bit about

why it’s important first of all and what leaders who are listening can maybe do to make change.

Barbara OMalley (27:44.867)
Yeah. Yeah. I’m of that age as well. And I’m in that age group. So I actually have real personal insight into it. But I think you know this from all the statistics. see like 59 % of women going through menopause feel that it negatively impacts their job. And that’s going to impact their confidence. 40 % of them think of even quitting. And 40 % actually reduce their hours.

And the reality is it’s really massively important that we retain our female talent in our organizations to ensure that we continue to have that broader diversity of thought in the rooms and in the boardrooms because the researchers tell you that women absolutely are powerhouses and absolutely contribute to driving great outcomes for organizations.

So it’s really important that our organizations get behind it. For our organization, it was part of the life matters policies that I referred to earlier. We introduced a menopause policy. We worked with partner groups like the Menopause Hub, who came in, did awareness conversations with us. We did the leader training, the line manager training, again, so that they could have those sensitive conversations, because not everybody’s or knows how to handle those things.

And obviously we put in place supports that people directing people to supports that we have in -house. And we actually already had a lot of supports, but it was a case of directing them to it. But as I said earlier on, it’s as much about opening up the conversation. And I see it myself, like you probably know this 70 % of us actually get this brain fog. Like, and literally people think they might be 70 % and you’re like,

Lucy Gernon (29:23.618)
Wow, 70%.

Barbara OMalley (29:27.659)
And I don’t know if it happened to you, but it certainly happened to me. And there are times I think actually, I’m probably through this conversation, I think, my God, what’s the word I need to use? And I fuddle words and I get mixed moments. And I was in a, you know, and it’s gotten to the stage because we’ve created that right, that permission to have the conversation, to be okay, not being okay at a particular moment. Like I’d often have conversations with some of my colleagues, you know, saying, I’m having a moment. My words aren’t coming out right.

And I’ll calm myself and I’ll move on and move through it. And it’s much more noticeable actually for me than it ever is for anybody else. But even just knowing that you can say that just takes a huge pressure off you. You’re not having to be perfect. You’re not having to be, you know, 100 % every single moment of every day. And it’s and that’s just really important. And if people can then speak to their leaders in our organization, you know, we’ve reasonable accommodations in place. You know, we give extra flexibility for people in those moments that matter.

Lucy Gernon (30:07.702)
Mmm.

Barbara OMalley (30:25.749)
It’s just really, really important because we do need to retain our great female talent in our organizations.

Lucy Gernon (30:27.394)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (30:33.173)
I’m just picturing you in these moments and I’m imagining you like, you you’re surrounded by men, for example. Like, so like how, that’s the thing, like, I think when it comes to like hormones and women, there’s a lot of stigma, you know, you’re hormonal today or like, how did you do work to educate, I suppose, the men in your organization? Because we know how to deal with it ourselves. We’re just like, she needs a minute, she’ll be grand. How did the men respond?

Barbara OMalley (30:35.341)
Hahaha

Barbara OMalley (30:39.821)
You

Barbara OMalley (30:46.007)
Mm.

Barbara OMalley (30:51.907)
We did. Yeah. Yeah, no, I have to be honest. I can only speak for the men that I’m surrounded by at this stage of my life. And since we’ve done this work in Irish Life Group, it’s an incredibly open, caring environment and culture. And that was one of the things I picked up on when I joined in 2019. I kept wondering, you know, when was the today moment? Like, when was somebody going to pinch me?

but actually a genuinely caring organisation. I could see that from the supports that they would have had in place even back then. And we’re only continuing to grow and evolve and aim even higher in regard to what supports we’ve got in place. So very, very open organisation. And I think that really helped. So, we did give specific training to all leaders, not just men and the women.

Because I think even some of our females sometimes feel a little bit uncomfortable broaching the subject. I was only talking to my mother. I actually only asked my mother about it there recently. I said, what was your menopause like? She goes, do you know what? We just said nothing. And we kind of got on with it. And she said, whereas everyone’s talking about it now. And I said, yeah, isn’t it great? And actually, genuinely is great. I walked into the gym. I was telling somebody the story. And the coach we were talking about, I was putting on a little bit of weight.

Lucy Gernon (31:46.572)
Mmm.

Lucy Gernon (31:57.846)
Mmm.

Barbara OMalley (32:07.949)
We were having the conversation. said, well, you’re at that age, Barbara. And he started giving me more information than I’d ever had. And I remember thinking, I walked out going, that wouldn’t have happened five years ago, that kind of conversation. Like the world is definitely changing. And it’s not just organizations like Irish Life Group that are having it. All organizations are having these conversations. And it’s the right thing to be doing. It’s to take the stigma away. There should be no shame in it. And we all have our moments. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (32:16.545)
No.

Lucy Gernon (32:29.506)
Absolutely. But can I interrupt you for a sec? Like, what if there’s because I know that there’s some women listening to this who are not in an organization who maybe is as progressive or as supportive as yours and they’re they’re dealing with a lot of they don’t have that. So I suppose you have to be the change, in my opinion, like if you want to make a change, you’ve got to start it. So how would you recommend if somebody’s listened to this and they don’t have that, they don’t feel that. How can they begin to make the change?

Barbara OMalley (32:39.405)
No.

Barbara OMalley (32:47.297)
Yeah. Yeah.

Barbara OMalley (33:00.179)
And the difficult one for me to answer, because I haven’t experienced that personally. And as you can probably tell, quite I was kind of brought up to just say it as it is a little bit. And I probably got that from my parents to respect everybody. Look up to nobody. Look down on nobody and respect everybody. But I think it’s just really important that you have that quiet conversation, whether it’s with a colleague or whether it’s with your your line manager.

you know, take them aside, have the conversation, explain the situation you’re going through. I know that that can be take a lot of courage and be a brave step for a lot of people. But unless they understand what you’re going through, they won’t be able to support you in the right way. actually, you know, my experience, you know, people are more than willing to support, but they need to understand. So if you can’t let them in, you’re preventing yourself from getting some support and help that may be invaluable to you later on.

Lucy Gernon (33:40.61)
Hmm.

Barbara OMalley (33:55.107)
So I would just encourage them to have those conversations. And role model or role play with somebody, practice with somebody having the conversation. talk to a buddy or friend, your mother or sister. And I don’t know if you had a coach, talk to a coach, do some role play with them to have those conversations and take that step forward. Because it’s the first step.

Lucy Gernon (34:16.598)
And I think as well, it’s like don’t make assumptions either because I think sometimes we make big assumptions that if I tell them this, well, then it’s going to impact negatively on me when in actual fact, it probably won’t at all.

Barbara OMalley (34:20.579)
No.

Barbara OMalley (34:26.339)
Yeah. Nope. And I’m going to give you a good example. It’s not a bit menopause, but having those assumptions. I remember going for a role once and I just had Clara and I said, well, I’m going to go into this role and I’m going to lay out that this is the way I work. I want to be gone by five. I’m not going to be hanging around the water cooler into the evening because I want to go and have dinner with my family. And I remember somebody saying to me, a female, don’t say that. That’s like career suicide. But I remember being in the interview.

Lucy Gernon (34:34.88)
Mm -hmm.

Barbara OMalley (34:54.557)
And I kind of stopped him and said, look, before you even offer me the job, or if you’re thinking of offering a job before you do, this is the way I work. And I talked to talked about the way I worked and the expectations. And that rather than it being career suicide, I did get offered the job. And actually, the reaction of the male leader at that point in time actually was, you know, he started laughing. He said, but like, why wouldn’t you? Like your family is the most important thing. I completely believe in that. So just making assumptions as to how somebody is going to react.

can stop you taking the brave steps that you need in order to support you. So from doing that, having that conversation with him, I had these boundaries set then that I didn’t then feel any real guilt about living to. So I was able to get the balance a little bit right in my life, know?

Lucy Gernon (35:35.353)
Mmm.

Lucy Gernon (35:39.35)
Yeah, and it sounds like that leader was very much aligned in values and the organization, therefore, is around the values. And I think that’s something that, you know, is so, so important in a career that it’s actually not that it’s nothing is wrong with you. It’s actually just that your values are out of alignment and that’s OK. Right. So just before we wrap up, I would talk to you all day. There are so many conversations I could have with you, but I’d love to know.

Barbara OMalley (35:43.341)
Mmm. Yeah.

Barbara OMalley (35:48.802)
Yes.

Barbara OMalley (35:54.325)
Yeah, yeah I completely agree with that.

Lucy Gernon (36:05.536)
I always say leaders are readers and there’s usually books that stand out for us in our lives. Is there one book that you have read recently or that really stands out that you read that helped you in some way?

Barbara OMalley (36:15.873)
Yeah, you’re probably going to know this book inside out and you’ve probably read it a few times. No, you do know all these things. No, because you’re you’re an experienced coach. No. Well, when I was doing the diploma, actually, Nancy Klein, time to think. There you go. There you go. No, there’s a there’s a line in that. It’s actually not her quote. He was quoting somebody else and they talked about life and change and how comes at you.

Lucy Gernon (36:18.324)
You think I don’t know anything? You’re not at all. God, I don’t.

Lucy Gernon (36:30.368)
Nope, I don’t know that one. There we go, tell us.

Barbara OMalley (36:42.615)
you know, these tidal waves hitching the face. And by the time you stand up, the next one’s hitching the face. And that’s the way life can feel sometimes. And I always, you know, when I think about that, I think about actually, you know, it’s really important that you get out of the water, you dry yourself off, do your breathing, meditate, calm down and take some time to think and reflect. And that’s the crux of it. And you know this from coaching and I’m speaking to an expert here as opposed to an amateur learner here. But like,

Working with clients as part of that diploma, that time to think actually really resonated with me, the importance of giving yourself the time to think, because sometimes, you know, in order to go faster, you actually need to slow down and you need to give yourself that space. And, you know, working with clients, seeing them after like, you know, six, seven sessions. So like no more than maybe six to nine hours work that they get, that they get put into themselves. The transformation of some of them was phenomenal.

Lucy Gernon (37:22.557)
Absolutely.

Lucy Gernon (37:39.167)
Yeah, so rewarding.

Barbara OMalley (37:39.373)
Whereas they could have, you no, it’s unbelievable. and you know, cause they obviously were, know, you know, all this, like they’re obviously, had self -limiting assumptions about themselves. had personal beliefs and biases and, actually, you know, working through those and unpicking those and get, and they do all the work obviously. And they’re transformed by the end of it. And they’ve much better belief and confidence in themselves. And I remember thinking, you know, if you were to say to someone, you know, six to nine hours in yourself over a period of time.

Lucy Gernon (38:01.078)
Mmm.

Barbara OMalley (38:08.631)
like maybe six months. Most people say, and if you do that, you’re going to transform, you’re going to have greater confidence. They bite your hand off, but yet we don’t give ourselves that time to think, do we? So that’s what kind of, so I often kind of use that language. Nancy Klein, time to think, time to think. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it is amazing, you know, we don’t give ourselves enough space.

Lucy Gernon (38:19.298)
Yeah.

So what was it called? Nancy Klein. What’s the name of the book? Time to Think. Okay, guys, we’ll link that in the show notes. Nancy Klein, Time to Think.

Lucy Gernon (38:34.698)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I remember someone said to me before, if you set a meeting with yourself every single week and you ask yourself the same questions that you’re asking everybody else, especially when it comes to in business, you’re probably like you’re the expert on yourself. You’re going to come up with solutions that work for you. Why do we ask everyone else?

Barbara OMalley (38:49.073)
Mm.

Barbara OMalley (38:55.393)
That is so true, that is so true.

Lucy Gernon (38:58.444)
So just before we wrap up, I’d love to know, I always ask my listeners these two, or my guests these two questions. What is one piece of advice that you like really resonated with you? The best piece of advice you’ve got.

Barbara OMalley (39:09.699)
Best piece of advice from a young age was never be afraid to ask for help. It’s a strength not a weakness. And I think that’s incredibly important, particularly as people navigate their career and get into different roles and responsibilities.

It’s OK to be vulnerable. You’re not expected to know all the answers. And actually, most people don’t. That’s why most people work in teams and surround themselves with great people and open up the conversation and the diversity of thought. So that’s probably don’t be afraid to ask for help because it’ll help you get there quicker.

Lucy Gernon (39:43.604)
Yeah, I love that. And like you said earlier as well, nobody knows everything. Like you’ve said so many things today and you’re like, you know this and I’m like, nope, no, don’t. go on. I’m laughing at you too. And tell me this as well, right? Like one of my biggest mantras is for women and for everybody that, know, you can have it all. A lot of people say women can’t have it all. You absolutely can. So what does success, balance and happiness mean for you?

Barbara OMalley (39:55.927)
No, I’m just laughing at you.

Barbara OMalley (40:14.339)
Yeah, I’m actually going to quote somebody who said this to me, that there’s only ever 100 % of you. So our life is, if you visualize a circle, your life is in these wedges of work, life, children, personal time, downtime, family care and responsibilities, community contribution, whatever it is that makes up your life. And they said to me, through the ebb and flow of life, sometimes that gets out of sync.

So the important thing is to recognize when that’s happening and then to adjust because if something takes a little bit more time than normal, something else has to give. can’t continue to operate at the same level or else you’ll just be, you’ll wear yourself down. So for me, it’s about making sure that I’m always in sync. But actually, as I said, I set boundaries. So I always make sure I leave loudly at five o ‘clock in the evening and say goodbye to everybody when I’m in the office and I get home to have dinner with my kids and my husband, who, as I said,

Lucy Gernon (40:53.378)
Hmm.

Barbara OMalley (41:12.131)
top of the arrow is a great cook and that’s a favourite part of my day and that’s what brings me happiness like sitting there with them now having conversations about how was your day and they’re even interested to know how my day is they’re at that stage where they’re really curious about what I do and that’s what brings me kind of that balance is.

Lucy Gernon (41:19.242)
How is your day? Do you have an answer to know how my day is?

Lucy Gernon (41:30.162)
Amazing. I love that family is everything. So, Barbara, listen, thank you so much for being an amazing guest. I’m so excited to go back and pick through this episode and thank you for your patience with the tech issues.

Barbara OMalley (41:33.495)
Yes. No worries.

Barbara OMalley (41:39.383)
Right. Not at all. Not at all. And apologies for that. And lovely chatting to you, Lucy. Thanks a million. Bye.

Lucy Gernon (41:43.742)
Not at all. You too. Thanks a million Barbara