#110 How to Advocate For Yourself At Work with Selena Rezvani

0:00
Welcome to the 360 leadership podcast, the top rated show for driven women in senior leadership with new episodes released every Wednesday. I’m your host, Lucy Gernon, a multi award winning executive coach for women leaders and the founder of 360. Leaders Club exclusive high level membership for career driven family orientated women just like you. I created the 360 leadership podcast to share practical tips, actionable step by step strategies and inspiring stories to support you to unlock the power and belief within to accelerate your impact and potential, so you can build a life filled with success, balance and happiness. So are you ready to achieve 360 degree success? No more excuses. No more waiting. Your time is now. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to this week’s episode of the 360 leadership podcast where I am joined by a another fantastic guest. And this guest is honestly I’m like, I look up to you. Okay, that’s all I’m gonna say. I think you’re absolutely phenomenal. Today we our guest is Selena Rezvani, whose mission is to help women carve out paths to leadership. She has been named by Forbes as the premier expert on standing up for yourself at work. She’s the author of The Wall Street Journal best selling book, quick confidence, which is just super powerful, and also wrote pushback on the next generation of women leaders. She addresses 1000s of professionals each year and has been featured and TEDx Harvard Business Review in today’s show on NPR. And she’s also columnist for NBC News Know your value. She is based in Philadelphia, where she lives with her husband, Jeff and her 10 year old boy girl twins. So Selena, you’re so welcome on the podcast today. How are you?

1:51
I’m really good, better now that I’m with you. And I just want to thank you, Lucy, for all the great work you do to empower women

2:01
right back out to so we were just literally speaking about that before we came on about the importance of I don’t know, this is not what we’re talking about in its entirety. But the importance of women, empowering women on supporting each other. So maybe, like, before we get into about you and everything, like how important is it? Do you think for us to support each other as women so we can progress together? It’s

2:23
undeniably important, you know, because part of the ways we can support each other, normalize can normalize women doing things that maybe they’ve gotten pushback or blowback for, you know, in the past, or even at times now. And I’ll give you a quick example. Some of this requires us women to catch our own biases in action. But I remember hearing a woman introducing herself, she was new to my company. And she was explaining to us the kinds of projects she’d overseen the big deal companies she’d come from. And I found myself saying, like, wow, she’s blowing her trumpet, isn’t she? And I had to stop and catch myself. Because here I was falling prey, you know, to the stereotype that, oh, maybe women should be modest, you know, humble self effacing. And really, she was just trying to tell us like, where she came from, you know, and what experiences she brought. So I think there are so many micro moments that we as women can either catch some of our own stereotypical thinking, you know, and correct it. You know, do the affirmative thing, you know, maybe in a case like that, applaud that woman, pull her aside afterwards, or speak positively to her in front of her team. I’m so glad you introduced yourself that way, because you really gave us a sense of where you’ve come from.

4:01
And where do you think those biases come from? Because I have my opinions on this. Yeah,

4:08
you know, there are decades of research that show some of the biases we have around gender in particular, come from kind of rigid stereotypes about how, for example, men should act, women should act, and that when we act out of those stereotypes or roles, we often get punished for it. And for women, some of the main stereotypes that uphold the biases are things like being modest, nice, communal, attentive, you know, accommodating. And of course, if you look at a job like leadership, which you know all about Lucy, it often requires us to do things that are the antithesis of that, for example, to make a really hard call on a decision to make the unpopular always, you know, to take a firm position on something and not back down. You know, it’s a very, very tight, tight rope that women end up having to walk. But Lucy, I’d love to hear your perspective on some of these biases and stereotypes. What do you see?

5:19
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think you’re you’re so right. I love that you’re calling out the modesty and the nice. And I call it like the good girl syndrome as well. It’s like, I mean, I was raised to be a good girl, I don’t know about you. So I really had to break out of that like, but I think a lot of time with women, Serena. It’s about it’s jealousy. It’s when another woman has the confidence to advocate for herself and to, for example, in my business, I position myself as the number one executive coach, supporting women in leadership with self belief and confidence. Maybe not as much as you write, but that’s how I position myself. And I find it really difficult. So I was working with my brand strategist to step into that role. And I was kind of going, I can’t say that what are people gonna think about me, and she was like, You need to call yourself a multi award winning coach, because you have been nominated for like 1516 awards, you’ve won. I was like, Well, I can’t say this. So I really had to challenge myself. And own I suppose, where you know, my strengths and my accolades. So I think, what I think as women, then sometimes we don’t come from an environment where I came from with the corporate space, where we don’t speak in that way, well, then it becomes alien. So I think like going back to your point on this whole thing about like biases, how can how can we begin to overcome them? Firstly, as a woman to woman, yeah,

6:48
and I love your example. And I really appreciate it, by the way, and I think a lot of us can relate to it. Some ambivalence with our own power with owning our own power, or title or authority. So I know a lot of us are feeling that story you just shared. But in terms of our biases, I think some of it comes, you know, in looking at and boosting our awareness. And the idea there is that all of us have these unconscious biases, right? The thought, the thought that we have the biased thought, wow, that woman’s really blowing her trumpet, she’s bragging, that thought may be automatic. But our reaction to that thought is something we can control. Yes. And that’s what gets me out of bed every day. That’s what gets me excited. Next week, I’m doing a workshop for people around the world on interrupting gender bias, right. And that’s what’s really exciting, the thought might be automatic or unconscious. But our reaction is something we can control. So I think one element is to bring that learning mindset, none of us are kind of ever done, you know, doing the work of bias management and being inclusive leaders, none of us are done. It’s kind of like a garden, right? A garden is never done. It kind of needs consistent ongoing weeding and nourishment and exposure to important things. And it’s the same with us. You know, so I think bringing that learning mindset, a somewhat forgiving mindset, knowing you’re gonna step in it, sometimes you’re gonna mess up, you’re gonna say the wrong thing in your quest to learn. That’s okay. You know, try to know better and do better. It’s, I think, knowing we can control what happens after the thought. It’s knowing this is ongoing. It’s not a little tick mark, or check mark, to be one and done. I completed the training. So now I’m done with it. And I think too, I would just say, education and exposure, can you keep stretching your own education and exposure in inclusion? Even if your company doesn’t send you to something like this? Even if your company doesn’t say, hey, Lucy, will you be the one to start an employee resource group? You know, how can you yourself, get more education exposure experience?

9:33
I love I love that. I want to bring you back to something you said which is pivotal, and all my listeners are going to be going what how? So you said that I love it that the whole thought process. We can’t control the power but we can control the response. And so I’m asked this again all the time, too, and I’d love to hear your tips on how do we control the response when it’s so ingrained in ourselves like what are your tools and tips and tactics? To be able to respond more thoughtfully.

10:02
Well, so one of them, you know, I described that tightrope that women can sometimes walk when they behave out of stereotype, right in more agentic behaviors that we stereotypically have associated as masculine. Okay? That women sometimes get punished for doing that being decisive, you know, being particularly assertive in their approach or style. And so I think one of the things is listening for kind of stereotyped or punishing assessments of people, maybe it’s review time, and you’re sitting around a table. And, you know, people are saying, you know, I think Mike has great leadership potential. But Susan, she really needs to work on her interpersonal skills, kind of smiling more, right to be aware of these things, when we hear them around us, maybe even when they come out of our mouths. Yeah. So I think that’s one thing is where bias breeds is in people decisions, promotions, rewards, compensation, hiring, who gets plum assignments and stretch opportunities. So really making a point to tune in and listen, that things are being handled equitably? When those people decisions are getting made, which is often Oh,

11:33
my God, you know, what you’re bringing me back when you were saying that to a scenario that I remember now. And it’s like, all the light bulb moments just went off. I had a team member who was really assertive in my team, when I used to work in corporate and she was the kind of person she got things done, she didn’t take any crop. And I just thought she was fantastic. Because she was so results driven. She was able to manage the team at cetera, et cetera. And I remember sitting around the table with, you know, at the end of your time with the rest of the people on the leadership team, and we were, you know, rating everybody and and like this girl, I wanted her in the outperform category, because she delivered such value for, for the company. She was fantastic. And there was this one guy who dealt with her regularly. And he was like, No, she doesn’t. She really doesn’t, she’s, she’s uncooperative. And, and so because she wasn’t jumping through hoops for him when he needed her to, he saw that as uncooperative. And I just think now I’m like, oh, and that’s why because I never really understood. Like, she was fantastic. But really, I think it was because she was quite a dominant male. And he was used to people saying yes, and she was saying, No, I can’t do this. So if if some of my listeners are resonating with this, and I know they are, how would you advise they handle that situation? If they’re at the leadership table? What kind of questions or what kind of, you know, what can they do to influence it? Yeah,

13:00
that’s such a great example. And it’s so shocking in a way that two people assessing the same person can think so differently, right, that you’re sitting there going, Wow, what a producer she really delivers. And he’s going, she’s not as compliant and cooperative as I’d like. Wow. Right. It’s the same person, but viewed so differently. And I think in a case like that, one thing we can do is to flip the script. So if we hear somebody saying, you know, I, I just don’t think X person smiles enough. I don’t think she brings enough warmth and friendliness in her interactions, flipping the script and saying, would we say that about her male peer? Would that fly? Hmm. Does it raise some alarm bells that wait a minute, you know what we would never say that about? Mike, let’s be real. You know, we would never say that about Joe. But we are saying it about her what’s going on?

14:03
I love that I need to write down that question. I think and that would be really good. Like to have like three even I’m just imagining that team of leaders sitting around a table, maybe there’s like a couple of questions that could be a standard to challenge those biases. So you said would we say this about our male counterpart? Would we say this, whether male or male, peer, or anything else that you would recommend the challenge on?

14:26
I think another one is saying, you know, particularly I’ve mentioned people decisions, having a objective criteria, or rubric for how we’re assessing candidates, maybe that’s to get performance ratings, or maybe it’s to get that exciting promotion, but some objective criteria. So that way, our biases don’t creep in when, you know, maybe we’re lacking criteria, and we’re more likely to give Mike the candidate a green light and say, Oh, he’s got loads of future potential. Hmm. But Rachel, I think she needs three more years to be ready. Yeah.

15:07
So let’s, let’s dig into that piece for a second. But that’s so common. And it’s so frustrating that the women who don’t advocate for themselves, which is what we’re going to be talking about in a seconds, are the ones who are told that they need three more years while they’re still doing the work. Yeah. So you said some objective criteria for these people decision. So what would some objective criteria be? So some

15:31
of it would be something like a bachelor’s degree in engineering, you know, if that’s our role, that’s a pretty clear determinant, if somebody’s got that, or not, three to five years of experience in the engineering world, right, in this made up scenario, maybe there’s a certification of significance you want for this person, that’s what I’m talking about. And when we have that in place, you know, we have kind of a north star to guide some of our hiring and people decisions, and so that we’re not just hiring the family friend, who doesn’t really cut them out, you know, doesn’t really meet the standard. We’re not just greenlighting the man may be out of habit or bias, presuming his intelligence and competence, but questioning a woman’s of equal, you know, credentials. And by the way, this is called the proven again, bias. And it’s it’s not just an experience you or I have observed, it’s proven that we tend to hold women and people of color to higher standards, hence that name prove it again, it’s like if you have to jump through one ring as a white male, you know, someone else has to jump through multiple rings and prove again and again, that they have what it takes that they are ready. Hmm.

17:02
And do you see in your work? Do you see the world changing in any way in the in that respect?

17:09
I do. But I think it’s, it’s slow. I think the sense of urgency isn’t there. And, you know, I think sometimes we hear and see statistics, even sobering statistics, like how few women are in the C suite, for example of large companies. And there’s a kind of numbing, that I think has happened to people, you know, a little bit of a glazing over that we hear the facts, we hear the information, but it’s, it’s been so constant, almost doesn’t trigger a reaction. That’s, that’s one way it feels looking at the corporate world and observing. That’s not to say there aren’t efforts and experiments being done. But I actually think what’s, you know, good for particular groups, is, is actually good for everyone. I think one of the things that’s going to rise more and more to the surface as important to all employees, is personal choice. When it comes to the workplace, I think there’s so much personal choice that gives us a sense of agency, the sense that we are our own self advocates, the sense that we are crafting our jobs alongside our employer, we’re not just snapping to attention and doing what we’re told, we’re co owners, you know, in the work we’re doing. So I think giving employees more personal choice. And I think this is why we’re seeing such a backlash with return to work. It’s not so much where employees work, for example, that research is showing is important to them. It’s having a choice. Yes. And I think sometimes hybrid isn’t the illusion of choice. But it’s really come here when I say you should come here. Yeah. So

19:13
but like, I think, you know, I see there was a lot of change happening. And I agree with you with it is definitely slow. But I think I think there’s a lot of blame that is put on organizations, whereas I think that you know, you are the women are part of the organization. So I mean, you can I know that, you know, the culture is set from the top down and all of that good stuff. But if women don’t advocate for themselves and don’t believe in themselves, first and foremost, nothing is ever going to change. I had a client recently who she was either a VP level and she was asked to take on an additional scope within her within her bandwidth with no extra compensation and this was additional taking on an additional revenue stream I think of like a billion dollars from Didn’t ridiculous. And she didn’t want to have the conversation because a lot of women that I would you know, encounter, I don’t know that you kind of have this need for validation on it’s like, well, if I’m doing a really, really good job, if I’m doing a good enough job, they’ll reward me. And that’s just not the case. So what would you say to that person who’s listening now, who I think I saw you do an Instagram reel on this? I think at some point, you know, they’ve been voluntold, they’ve been given additional responsibility, and they want to push back or they want to be compensated. How do they handle this?

20:34
This is such an interesting question. And I did just make a real about this. And it’s it went viral. And I cannot tell you, Lucy how much disagreement there was, which just made my head spin, I found it really fascinating how passionate people were, but how different their views and perspectives. One camp was saying, Look, this is a great opportunity to learn. In fact, the way I moved up in the corporate world was by saying yes to juicy, big opportunities like this, don’t worry, you’ll figure out the pay and title later. Okay, that’s one side. And along with that side was a group of people who said, You will most certainly get punished if you say no. Mm hmm. You know, either directly or indirectly. The other side said, Absolutely not, you know, no, is enough of an explanation. No, I won’t do it without additional pay and recognition in terms of the title. No further discussion. So it was really fascinating. You know, how differently people felt about this. And strongly, it really struck a nerve. And I think that’s because there is a kind of power dynamic shift happening right now in the work world, where I think employees felt very captive in moments like that, like, I don’t really have a choice here. But I’m here to say you must certainly do, and everything is negotiable. Yes, everything is negotiable. And in the best case scenarios, we can make it somewhat of a win win, you know, we can strive for that. But look, in some cases, it’s not, it’s not going to make the other person happy when we set a limit, or we say, you know, I’m unable to do that at this time, without, you know, a change in my title, or having my compensation rise, you know, in alignment with this responsibilities. So it’s, again, it’s great to find those win wins. But there are plenty of times where we will need to sit with the discomfort of the person across from us who’s not very happy with us.

22:54
And you know what, like, that’s I recorded a podcast on this a while back on how to negotiate your salary. And one of the steps that I shared was, you know, you’ve got to be ready to walk out the door, like, and they have to know that. So it’s like, you know, I think a lot of women go in with this permission base, like, Can I have a pay rise? Or, you know, I’m really good at my job. I know you want me to do this? Would it be okay, if you can compensate me? And that energy just does not sell? So I mean, what what would you say to I suppose the woman who is in her job right now, she knows she’s been paid underpaid, versus her peers. She knows she’s adding more value, because the business results show us she’s got all of this data, usually, to back up the fact that she should be, you know, being compensated appropriately. Where can it? Where can she find the confidence going back to your confidence, like what tools or techniques would you recommend to somebody in that position?

23:57
Yeah, I love your point here about the energy you’re bringing, because that energy means everything, everything, it really it’s the vehicle, you know, for your words and your message to reach the other person. And one of the frameworks that I really like to encourage people to do, you know, helps with exactly what you just pointed out. Instead of it being this permission seeking conversation. May I have, can I pretty Please have this thing? It’s more like bringing the energy of a really valuable business proposal that you’re in front of your manager. And what would that energy look like? Right, it wouldn’t look like hey, would you be willing to listen for just a few minutes? I know you’re so busy and I know you have a lot going on, but would it be okay? No, it doesn’t sound like that. It sounds like hey, is now a good time. I have a really, you know, important conversation to share with you So I think we can talk about something that’s going to add some real value. It’s excited. It’s enthusiastic, right? It might be bottled enthusiasm, but you can feel the person’s excitement and the sense of possibilities. And, you know, that’s the energy I encourage people to bring. And so there’s a framework I teach when I’m teaching self advocacy. And it’s really before any high stakes conversation, and it’s to use G P. S. Think about stand in the shoes of your audience before you ever talk to them. And so the G is for goals, really thinking about what are their short and long term business objectives and goals that are like front of mind for that person. The P is for passions. And this could be interests, causes, that are really meaningful to them. Maybe it’s an initiative within the organization, and everyone’s saying that word or term, it’s really hot and important and meaningful. Another one is struggles. Okay, so not so much their passions and interests, but what is their pain that they’re feeling right? Or, you know, discomfort, and looking at these goals, passions and struggles, is there a way that you can hook to your proposal, how you might help their GPS in some way, maybe not all three. But maybe you’re showing, look, here’s how I’m able to pursue and further your goals of XY and Z with this proposal. With me, as a VP, you know, moving me into a VP role, I could really take your goals to the next level, or your passion, I know you a passion of yours is to be an employer of choice. You know, if I’m able to serve on this recruitment, you know, of women and minorities committee, I believe it can really advance further your interest in being a top employer, you know, or maybe it’s that struggle. I know, xx is a really manual process. We’re very time consuming. My plan will alleviate that. And so I think this is a wonderful way for us to negotiate and advocate for ourselves. And really move the conversation from the energy of me, me, me, I have I want I need I deserve to wait. Yeah, oh, my god,

27:52
I love that too. I absolutely love a GPS, I’m writing that down. And you reminded me of when not again, when I worked in corporate. And again, it’s like the biggest mistake I think people make when they go into these negotiations, it is like me. So I remember, one of my team came to me, and she asked me for a pay rise and hurt her negotiate, or her rationale was that she had been with the company for five years, she needed more money, because she had a mortgage, and she wants to be compensated. Now, I knew that this girl was amazing at her job. So I didn’t diss her I just explained to her look, you’re not talking my language here, I can’t go to my superior and say you’ve bought a house and you need more money, you’ve got to be able to come up with a tangible list of reasons that you deserve this, that linked to the bottom line. And she did and we got it over the line because of that. So I think that that is like I always talk about too, I call it the tunnel, the tunnel of trust. Because especially when I started my business and you notice, you know, you’ve got to talk in your ideal clients. Exactly, you know, their their language, you’ve got to talk to their pain points, so they understand that you understand them. And if we apply the same things in marketing, as we do in marketing in these negotiations, it’s exactly the same thing. So I love that you said that that that GPS goals, passions and struggles I’m talking in their language. Amazing. So so good. So so good. So

29:23
glad, and I really look at it Lucy as like a life skill, not just, yeah, play a skill, but I think we’d be further along as humans if we were willing to do more perspective taking you know, to really say okay, what is it like, what must it be like to be them? And so I it’s I’m a big believer it’s something I’m trying to teach my kids I think we’ve taped

29:49
ourselves too, too, too, though, right? Like I think you know people listening like you I don’t know about you Selena, but I’m certainly not perfect. I don’t get it right all of the time. But it’s about having these tools and these free and work to be able to go back and go, okay. Why, like, why am I feeling this way? And then being able to leverage that? So just in case you think I’m not perfect? I don’t know if you were, but I’m definitely not.

30:09
Oh, same here. In fact, I yeah, I think I started with my, my own bias moment. And I had many where I failed to implement via GPS. And so many of the women wonderful women I’ve interviewed for my books, many of them admitted the same to having a really catastrophic meeting. One woman in particular, I’ll never forget, she was trying to woo a really important crowd. And she said, I used all out dirt outdated terms and acronyms that they no longer used in their industry. And she said it killed my credibility, you know, and one of her points was, I wish I had taken the time, you know, to either tap my network, or think through their GPS, do my own research, and really get clear on like you said, their main language, their big goals, passions and struggles of now, not five years ago.

31:09
So what I wanted to ask you now, and I should have asked you at the start, because we’ve just gotten into this is like, how did you become like this? I mean, you’re a multi award winning, you know, Coach, author, your speaker, like, how did you become the woman you are today?

31:22
Wow, that’s

31:24
a great

31:25
question. And I feel really lucky, I get to work on a mission that really drives me every day to help people be more confident self advocates. You know, I myself am a recovering Good girl. And I think for a long time, I struggled to advocate my needs. And it’s really a big piece of what got me fired up to learn about this, to incorporate it in small ways into my life and kind of daily and weekly practice. And ultimately, to teach it to others, you know, to dig deeper and interview women leaders about, you know, their hardest one lessons in advocating for themselves, what they might recommend to help someone else accelerate their path and get there quicker.

32:16
And what was your lightbulb moment? So I mean, we’re like, Good girls back in the past. And I’m exactly the same as you when I kind of just realized, you know, what life is so short? Why am I living thing? Why am I living my life to please other people when I’m not pleasing myself? And for me, it was when my father in law passed away in 2020. It was like my whole world changed. And I’m curious for you, like, when was that moment? Because there usually is one.

32:42
Yeah, there usually is you’re right. And I’m sorry to hear about your father in law.

32:46
Thank you.

32:47
You know, I said, like I mentioned, I am a recovering Good girl, I definitely was raised in a home taught to kind of defer to authority, that it’s like a little better to be seen than heard. And that didn’t make me a natural self advocate when I was younger. But we lost my dad very suddenly, when I was a teenager. And that was devastating. Across the board. Well, years later, a few years later, when it came time to go to college, which you know, in the US is a fully personally funded endeavor. We, my mom was able to help me as an incredible single mom, go to college that first year, and the school gave me some financial aid. And I loved it. I loved the college, I loved everything about it. But lo and behold, that second year, I got a lot less financial aid. And my mom sat me down at our kitchen table with like pain in her eyes that I’ll never forget. And she said, Honey, I can’t send you back. I’m sorry, I just can’t swing it. And I knew in that moment, if anything was going to change the future of what was going to happen. It had to start with me. My mom had never been to a four year college, let alone you know, haggled with a financial aid office. And so I wrote a long appeal letter, and I asked them to reconsider. I said, Please, you know, these are the ways I would like to contribute to the university and university life. Here are the many jobs I will take on from the cafeteria to working in one of your continuing education offices, tour guide, whatever it takes, I will do it to make it worth it to you. And to my shock, they change that number. They increase these dollars, not just for year two, but for year three and year four as well. And I realized in that moment, asking Going for what you need, you can change your life. But so often, you know, even if you have loved ones or you have sponsors at work or you know, mentors or people rallying for you, nobody is going to ask on your behalf, you really have to be your own number one, advocate. And so that really changed my life in gratitude for what that school did for me, but also showing me what can happen, you know, when you, when you propose something that can be a win win,

35:41
you’re given me, because I’m with you in the story, I’m imagining you like writing that letter, I can imagine the emotion and I can just feel I can see how that would have changed everything. And I think what’s really important in that, and I think it’s a lesson that everyone can take from everything, which you teach in terms of that specific example for leadership on the workplace is, first of all, you didn’t take no for an answer. You went back with a a different approach. You spoke in their language again, about how you could add value and clearly you were motional. You clearly you wanted this. So I think, like those three things, I think are a massive factor in and I love you remind me of Kris Jenner, what she always says I love the Kardashians. I don’t know about you, I just, I just really respect them. I know there’s like most people hate them. I like them. She says, if you if you hear no, you’re just talking to the wrong person, like no one ever means no, you’re just talking to the wrong person, or you’re talking to the right person at the wrong time. So I love that you were able to turn that no into Yes. So well done. I love it. Love it. Love it. Love it.

36:50
Thank you such a learning experience. And I forgot to mention they gave me all those jobs, too. I’m so grateful for it. I learned so much through those jobs. And, you know, kind of helped me feel more like I was earning my place.

37:05
Yeah. And look where it’s taking you. And I love that you’re now using all those experiences to teach women all around the world. So let’s talk about before we finish up, let’s talk about your book, quick confidence. Now, guys, this is not sponsored or anything, I just love Selena, and she hasn’t here and I loved everything about it. I love the yellow. I love everything. So tell us about your book

37:25
door. So most of us don’t have a lifetime to build confidence. Right? A huge majority of people 85% say they struggle with confidence issues. And so one of the things I’ve been really excited to do in this book is compiled over 85 different ways that we can practice and build up our confidence in small bite size everyday ways. So not just the grand gestures and the once a year. You know, bold bets. But small ways we can do this. And in the book, I separate out things we can do from a mindset perspective, right, just between you and you, your own belief systems. I also separate out body language, things you can do to kind of maybe make a body shift. If you’re in a bad way, you’re not feeling good, you’re uncomfortable. And then the third category is interpersonal moves, those things that you can do in your interactions that boosts your confidence. So I’m so excited. It’s out in the world, Lucy, it started as a newsletter during the pandemic that went viral. And so it’s really beautiful and incredibly rewarding to see it be a book today.

38:46
Amazing. And where can people find the book? Are you seeing what’s an all all over? Anywhere

38:50
books are sold? You can find it on Amazon. You can find it at Barnes and Noble and other bookstores. But pretty easy to find, which is great.

39:01
Amazing. Well, I linked that book in the show notes for you guys as well. Okay, Selena, thank you so much. I’m conscious. I’ve taken up some of your time. And I’m really, really grateful that my listeners get to hear from you. And I would like to just finish off by asking you two questions. I always ask my guests. The first one is what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received? It doesn’t have to be related to confidence. And I’d love to hear the story behind it.

39:26
Yeah, so a woman mentor of mine. She asked me one day we were in the car driving to an event together. She said to me, Selena, who who are the premier experts in your space. And I thought for a moment and rattled off, I think three or four names. And she stopped at a red light and looked me dead in the eye. And she said Why not you hmm. And I’ll never forget it I will never forget it. It’s been over 10 years since she said that to me, and it’s tattooed on my mind. It reverberates because I think so many of us as women find it easy, easier to amplify, and hold up somebody else’s work. Somebody else as the expert, someone else’s credentialed, ready, experienced enough. And my hope and my wish for so many women is to see that in themselves that you are already an expert. On it. Act like what because you know, that’s what you are.

40:41
Exactly. Oh, I love it. I love that’s actually in how you introduce yourself as well. You are the their premier expert in your field, which I love. And then finally, what is one piece of advice that you you know, if you were lying on your deathbed, and you you know, you’re with your family, and they said to you, like, give us some parting wisdom or parting advice? What

41:02
would you say? Yeah, I would say something I think about so often. And a piece of advice I give people, particularly over thinkers, those over thinkers. Don’t tell yourself No, before they do. Hmm. You have that hunger and fire in your belly to go for that juicy job. Write a book. Propose a bold new initiative, start a business, whatever it is. Don’t tell yourself No. Before, you know, that anticipated authority figure does. Right put yourself in a position where you’re willing to put a lot of shots on goal. You know, use that volume approach. Rather than being really precious with what you asked for. Get out there and get experience you’re only going to win or learn. Love it. So

42:05
you’re only going to win or learn and never tell yourself no before they do. Oh my god so powerful. So Nina, thank you so much. You’ve been an absolutely incredible guest. Where can people find you if they want to learn more? Yeah,

42:18
please look out for me at Selena rezvani.com. That’s my website and you can check out content. I make five days a week leadership content on video on Tik Tok Instagram, I share it on LinkedIn. And my handles at all of those are Selena Rezvani

42:37
amazing, nice and easy to remember. Well, guys, we will link everything in the show notes. Selena, thank you so much for your time. You’ve been incredible. I’ll talk to you again soon.

42:45
Thank you, Lucy. Take care