#185 Mastering Emotional Intelligence with Dr. Mary Collins

Lucy Gernon (00:01.673)

Welcome back to another episode of the 360 Leadership Podcast. Today I am joined by the fantastic Dr. Mary Collins, who is a chartered psychologist, senior coach practitioner, author and keynote speaker who has been working in leadership and talent area for over two decades. Mary works as part of the academic team in the Royal College of Surgeons Centre for Positive Health Sciences in Dublin and also runs a successful private psychology practice.

 

Mary’s key areas of research are intergenerational workplace, leadership and wellbeing and women in leadership. Mary’s little known fact is that she won a scholarship to be an intern in Washington, DC during the Clinton era. And I cannot wait to hear more about that. And Mary also has just recently launched a book on emotional intelligence that is relevant to us all. So Mary, you are so, so welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

 

Dr Mary Collins (00:57.358)

Thank you so much, Lucy. I am great and I’m just thrilled to be here. I’ve been bingeing your podcast series over the last week and it’s just wonderful. So it’s a real honor to be here today.

 

Lucy Gernon (01:10.695)

Amazing. Well, listen, let’s kick straight off, right? I mean, you are, you have had such a rich career from your private practice to the academic world and your, even your stint in Washington, DC as an intern during Clinton. So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about this story about how did you become an intern during the Clinton area in Washington, DC? Let’s just kick right off with that one.

 

Dr Mary Collins (01:30.414)

You

 

Okay, we start with the juicy part. No, I’m sorry to say there was absolutely no scandal or gossip my side. No, I a scholarship my final year in university. was a Jean Kennedy Smith. It was her scholarship across border initiative, sending a group of us from Northern Ireland and from the Republic, Catholics and Protestants over together to build

 

Lucy Gernon (01:36.102)

Yeah!

 

Dr Mary Collins (02:02.85)

connections and networks. And it was an incredible experience. I mean, we had full access to the White House, to Capitol Hill. We had a private conversation with Madeleine Albright at the time. And it was just one of those really magical summers that I spent in Washington. I came back to Ireland with a bit of a bang though.

 

Lucy Gernon (02:28.126)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (02:29.792)

after walking the marbles corridors of Capitol Hill and then I found myself in Finglas Dole office signing on because it was the late 90s and there wasn’t too many jobs around for graduates at that time.

 

Lucy Gernon (02:46.577)

my goodness, what a story. you are obviously a charter psychologist and I’d love to know, know, obviously after your internship in the big US of A and seeing all of that, you decided to focus on, you know, leadership psychology. So tell me a little bit more about what first sparked your interest in this whole area.

 

Dr Mary Collins (02:47.149)

Mmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (03:07.598)

Well, I have always been curious about people, what motivates them, what drives them. And the whole area of leadership became really of great interest to me when I started working in the whole area of HR. And you start to see the impact that positive leadership can have on individuals, on the organisational performance, et cetera.

 

but also negative leadership. Lucy, can you hear me?

 

Lucy Gernon (03:48.895)

You’re back, you’re back. It’s fine, we can cut that. I’m just gonna ask you that question again. Don’t worry, don’t worry.

 

Dr Mary Collins (03:49.63)

Lucy, no! What happened?

 

God. My my Wi-Fi looks OK, though. What’s going on? Let me just turn it. Let me just close down as much as I can here.

 

Lucy Gernon (04:08.991)

Well, it’s fine. Don’t worry, Ali. When you’re listening to this, I’m just going to re ask that last question I asked Mary. So if you can just go back to that question and just call out the the bit that liked, that would be great. Thank you, Ali.

 

Dr Mary Collins (04:21.602)

Okay, let me, I’m just going to make sure, yeah, phones on airplane mode. The kids. Okay.

 

Lucy Gernon (04:26.335)

Don’t worry, honestly, don’t worry, Will. Hopefully we’re going to manifest it’s all going to work properly.

 

Dr Mary Collins (04:30.926)

Okay, and if yeah, okay, so you’re gonna ask me my interest

 

Lucy Gernon (04:33.341)

Okay.

 

Lucy Gernon (04:37.287)

If it happens again, just don’t worry about it. I will just go back and ask you the same question again. So I’m just going to go back and ask you what first sparked your interest in leadership psychology. OK? OK, are you OK, Jeanine, a minute?

 

Dr Mary Collins (04:50.2)

Sure. Yeah.

 

Yeah, no, all good. And you know what? Because it’s school holidays, both my tween and my teenager are probably online in their bedroom, so I can ask them to stop. Yeah. Yeah, let me do it. Sorry, Lucy, one sec. OK.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:04.243)

I would, because I would just in case. Well, that’s okay.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:13.471)

you

 

Lucy Gernon (05:19.987)

you

 

Dr Mary Collins (05:46.006)

Okay, Lucy, isn’t it like in this day and age that we still have to deal with this tech stress like God. Okay, right. They’ve been thrown off their devices. So all good.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:48.912)

I know.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:52.593)

I know, mine are the same, don’t worry about it honestly, we’re all good.

 

Lucy Gernon (06:01.737)

Okay, so let’s recenter and let’s go back to, we were talking about you and you you’ve been to the Washington, you’d come back, were, you know, you’d been on the marble halls and then you’re back on the Dole and Finglas. And then I was just about to ask you my next question, which is, can you take us back to what first sparked your interest in leadership psychology?

 

Dr Mary Collins (06:10.894)

I

 

Dr Mary Collins (06:14.965)

Yeah

 

Mmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (06:27.758)

Sure, Lucy. Well, I think leadership psychology is just fascinating. It really is the intersection of human behavior, motivation, performance, personality. And I’ve always been really curious about people and what drives them. And I’ve always been really interested in business as well. So really one of my first roles, corporate roles was with Aircom. That tells you how long ago it was, now Air.

 

Lucy Gernon (06:55.539)

Bye!

 

Dr Mary Collins (06:57.358)

And I ended up working in the leadership development space there, looking after the top 130 executives in the organization. And what really fascinated me was that leadership is so individual. It’s so personal and it’s an ongoing journey or activity. And that’s what I love about it. You know, my strong belief is that everybody has the ability to develop leadership skills.

 

Okay, we’ve got that tiny percentage that are born with these innate genetic qualities, the Dalai Lamas of the world. But for most of us, it’s an ongoing journey of development. So I just love it. I just think this is a really exciting area of psychology to work in. And now more than ever, I mean, we don’t have to look too far when we see the impact of toxic leadership, unethical leadership. So

 

I’m really interested in the whole field of ethical leadership. So styles like compassionate leadership, servant leadership, authentic leadership. They’re very much the fields that I really love supporting people in.

 

Lucy Gernon (08:07.527)

Amazing. So I’d love for you to break down a little bit. A couple of things you said there is not everybody is kind of born a natural leader, but it is skills that you can actually develop over time. So if somebody is like a lot of my listeners are quite I’m not going to say seasoned because it makes them sound old, but they have experience in leadership. And I love what you said there. Like you said, something so powerful, which is that leadership is individual.

 

Dr Mary Collins (08:25.973)

Ha

 

Lucy Gernon (08:33.939)

And a lot of the time, what I see is leaders who try to conform to other leaders way of leading, which is not authentic to who they are. Thus, they will never make the impact they’re capable of. So first, I’d love to talk about the area of authentic leadership, because I’m just about to host a webinar on this, actually. Maybe when this is out, it’ll be over. I can’t remember the dates. But I’m hosting a webinar on authentic leadership because it’s something that is just

 

Dr Mary Collins (08:42.583)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (09:02.279)

so important and so needed. So can you explain to my audience what authentic leadership move from a psychologist perspective?

 

Dr Mary Collins (09:04.429)

you

 

Yes, well, the foundation of authentic leadership is self-knowing. You know, how well do you know and understand yourself, your strengths, your values, your limitations and really your life story? Because Lucy, when we think about it, who were the first leaders we see in our lives? They were our parents, our teachers. And for some of us, that was a really positive experience.

 

For others, not so much. So really how we’ve been shaped and even our position in the family. I always, I’m really interested in that. And, you know, being the oldest child of four, I’m always aware of how that’s shaped me. And sometimes I have to manage that parent in me. You know, I have to say, okay, let’s pull back a little here. So I think the starting point is really, you know, understanding yourself.

 

Lucy Gernon (10:02.623)

Hmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (10:03.928)

The other elements are, you know, having that moral integrity now more than ever. I mean, I think we can see examples of highly successful leaders, but a very dark side of leadership. So that moral compass, that moral integrity is really, really important. Being genuine, that whole area of vulnerability that I think Brené Brown has really shone a light on for us all.

 

I really think since the pandemic, I think the pandemic where we started to see people in their homes with like dogs running around and toddlers on their laps and we started to see people in a much more human real way. So I think that’s one of the positives of the pandemic. Actually, people are showing more vulnerability now and the younger generations in particular are a lot more open about their vulnerabilities. And then the other piece of authentic leadership is inclusion and fairness.

 

you know, making sure that people, that we respect people’s individuality and people feel included.

 

Lucy Gernon (11:07.293)

Hmm, absolutely. And I think as well, like just as you’re sharing that, think one thing is funny when you were talking about where you fall in the family, like I’m the eldest girl of three as well. So I think it’s always really interesting. you know, I would speak a lot, a lot to like, you know, eldest in the family. And we tend to be we tend to end up in the kind of leadership roles, a lot of us because of the, you know, the role you formed in the family. But I’m curious.

 

Dr Mary Collins (11:18.336)

Lucy Gernon (11:36.177)

in terms of the family dynamic and what you see as a psychologist. You mentioned that you’re fascinated to learn more about this area. Like what you see typically with women who are say the eldest versus the youngest versus the middle. Is there a pattern? Is it individual? I’d love to know.

 

Dr Mary Collins (11:53.15)

Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly there are some trends. mean, obviously we can’t apply them to everyone. But as you say, we do find there is a majority of eldest children among in leadership roles, which kind of makes sense, doesn’t it? guess as you’re growing up. But what’s fascinating about the middle child. So traditionally that would have been sort of the attention seeker and a little bit negative connotations.

 

But now we know the middle child is actually really skilled at influencing and negotiating and managing up and managing down. And yeah. And then the youngest child again, it obviously depends, you know, by how many years and how many children in the family, but we find there is the majority of actors, singers, people in show business tend to be the youngest child.

 

Lucy Gernon (12:40.017)

Wow, that so rings true. just thinking even for my own family, my youngest is nuts and she’s definitely going to end up on the stage. Like that’s crazy. It’s mad, isn’t it? OK, so we’ve talked about authentic leadership and the components of authentic leadership. And then you also mentioned servant leadership and then another one that I can’t remember. Compassionate leadership. So let’s dig into those a bit more, whichever one you’d like to start with.

 

Dr Mary Collins (12:43.468)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (13:00.354)

Compassionate leadership. Yes.

 

Well, I spend most of my working life in healthcare, so compassionate leadership has really come to the fore in recent years. And I think this is an area that, you know, sadly, as a society, our levels of empathy and compassion are on the decline. In fact, empathy levels have dropped by 40 % in the last 20 years. Four zero. Like they’ve gone off a cliff.

 

Lucy Gernon (13:29.395)

my goodness.

 

Dr Mary Collins (13:32.704)

So it is now more than ever I think we need to develop that muscle of compassion and empathy as leaders because sadly in the age of technology, the age of distraction, I think we’ve become a bit disconnected from each other.

 

Lucy Gernon (13:48.901)

Why is it this important? Right. So I’m hearing you. I’m with you all day long. Empathy and compassion are two of my biggest strengths, but also my biggest weaknesses, I might add. So I’m absolutely with you. But for people who are not there, why should they care? Why should they even bother working on their empathy and their compassion?

 

Dr Mary Collins (13:54.178)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (14:03.15)

Mm-hmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (14:10.04)

So particularly, and I know a lot of your listeners are women in leadership roles to really build trust, loyalty, empathy is it’s not about being nice, it’s about being effective. And what I’m talking about here is, but I getting too technical, cognitive empathy, which is, yeah. Yes.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:24.191)

Mmm.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:30.751)

Oh no, get technical, we love the technical, they’re all scientists, there are a lot of them are scientists, so give us all the proof.

 

Dr Mary Collins (14:37.122)

Well, listen, I spent a lot of my life training a young surgeon. So they’re all about the technical when it comes to this, this work, because it can’t be a bit fluffy, actually, let’s be honest. Whereas I really like to look at the evidence base behind this work, particularly emotional intelligence. So cognitive empathy is really understanding someone else’s framework. So I’ve listened to you, Lucy, I understand where you’re coming from. I might necessarily agree with you, but you feel heard by me.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:46.792)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (15:06.644)

And that’s a real gift to give someone that they feel listened to, they feel heard. And that’s how you build loyalty. It’s how we retain our top talent. It’s how we build trust in teams. And there’s a growing body of evidence now that shows we’ve higher performance levels on our teams, lower attrition rates. And interestingly, in my world of medicine, if you are high in empathy, you’re significantly less likely to get sued.

 

Even if you mess up badly in a surgery, you’re significantly less likely because you build that connection, that relationship with the patient in advance.

 

Lucy Gernon (15:47.018)

I love that. I love that. And what else?

 

Dr Mary Collins (15:50.39)

Hmm. So, for me, empathy, and this is where women have a superpower because when we look at the research between men and women, we know women score slightly higher, not significantly, but slightly higher on empathy and relationship skills. So I think we really need to leverage that. We really need to leverage that. I mean, this is a strength for many of us.

 

Lucy Gernon (16:11.038)

Yes.

 

Dr Mary Collins (16:16.622)

that hasn’t really been truly valued or recognized.

 

Lucy Gernon (16:21.331)

I think it’s like it’s a strategic advantage that women have. talk about this all the time as well, because like now you have to, I’m going to ground this in. It’s important to be ethical and be in integrity with yourself when you’re using empathy as a strategic tool. And this has to go back to what you said earlier about your values and you know, all of that. But I mean, I strategically use my empathy all the time to

 

Dr Mary Collins (16:23.992)

Yes!

 

Lucy Gernon (16:48.649)

Firstly, genuinely build connection with people because I genuinely like people. But also in the workplace, like if you can make somebody feel seen and heard, and it’s as simple as eye contact, isn’t it? Reflecting back their language, things like that. You are going to form a bond even with the toughest of characters. I have done this and instead of resisting them and instead of like trying to battle your values against their values, I’ve seen that when I use empathy and I just make them feel seen and heard.

 

they’ll bend over backwards for you afterwards because you’ve made them feel seen and heard. I think don’t underestimate guys the importance of empathy, but also it is a dangerous tool if it’s in the wrong hands as well.

 

Dr Mary Collins (17:30.786)

Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think empathy needs to be balanced with assertiveness and confidence and awareness. So I think it is about the balance of all of these things. But I totally agree, Lucy, particularly with difficult characters, you know, showing that empathy can really transform a relationship. And the other thing that that really comes up for me as we’re talking is in the age of AI.

 

Lucy Gernon (17:38.855)

Yes.

 

Lucy Gernon (17:47.743)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (17:59.66)

We need to really amplify those human skills. mean, even, know, AI is only as good as what we input. you know, our creativity, our innovation, our the human skills that we have, I think we really need now more than ever to to develop those, to focus on those.

 

Lucy Gernon (18:20.019)

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And that brings me on to the nice segue into the next topic that we were we were going to talk about, which is all around emotional intelligence. Right. That really leads into empathy. But I might just park that here for a second because we didn’t talk about servant leadership. So let’s come back to the empathy into the most intelligence and let’s just focus first on talk a little bit about servant leadership, because it’s a term I hear a lot and it actually gives me

 

It activates something negative in me when I hear that term. Yeah. So I’m curious to learn more.

 

Dr Mary Collins (18:53.489)

okay.

 

Tell me, I’m curious, why does it…

 

Lucy Gernon (19:00.891)

Yeah. Well, servant leadership to me, again, this is like my to me when someone’s a servant leader, they’re always pulling others before themselves. And I think that’s a big mistake. I think I think we as leaders should be in service to people, but we are not servants. And I think my definition of servant, I literally get flashes to like Downton Abbey. So when I hear servant leadership.

 

Dr Mary Collins (19:25.87)

Okay… Yeah…

 

Lucy Gernon (19:28.817)

It makes me go, no, I don’t want to be somebody’s servant. I want to be in service to people. So that’s that’s where my activation is coming from.

 

Dr Mary Collins (19:35.852)

Yeah. and the language is important, you know, really. And it’s interesting because my interpretation of it is the in-service piece and the humility. So when I hear about servant leadership, I think about a humble leader, a leader who parks the ego at the door, who is more focused on the people they lead than on themselves, on their ego and their…

 

Lucy Gernon (19:39.945)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (19:46.706)

Okay.

 

Dr Mary Collins (20:04.756)

objectives, if you like. that’s where I see it. And again, it’s particularly for the younger generations, if we really want to leverage and get the best from our Gen Zs and young millennials in the workplace, we know that that type of leadership is very effective with them.

 

Lucy Gernon (20:24.575)

I think it’s just once it’s not at your own expense for your own mental wellbeing. I think, I mean, that’s what I’d love you to share a little bit on that because what I see with people who define themselves as servant leaders is servant leaders usually start working with me when they’re at burnout because they’ve been in service so much, they’ve forgotten about the most important person that they need to serve first, which is themselves.

 

Dr Mary Collins (20:51.114)

Yeah, absolutely. And for me, the absolute foundation stone of a strong leader is self-knowing. It’s truly, you know, understanding your own emotional landscape, checking in regularly with how you are. And you know, that old cliche now, but the oxygen mask. But really, it’s so important that you

 

Lucy Gernon (21:01.533)

Yes.

 

Dr Mary Collins (21:17.698)

you really are taking care of yourself. So you can care and work with the people around you in the most, in the best way.

 

Lucy Gernon (21:26.771)

Now, guys, you’ve heard it from Dr. Mary. Take care of yourselves. Take care of yourselves. Right. So we’ve we’ve covered the, the different types of leadership. And thank you for that definition and for reiterating the importance of the self-knowing and the self-care. Let’s talk a little bit about emotional intelligence. And this is like one of my honestly, get really excited about most intelligence, which is why I was so excited for you to come on the show, because.

 

Dr Mary Collins (21:29.176)

you

 

Lucy Gernon (21:54.117)

I didn’t realize, first of all, that I’m actually a very naturally, emotionally intelligent person because it’s just it’s just always how I’ve been. think it’s and I think I know it’s a survival mechanism from childhood that I had to be emotionally intelligent to like test waters about how I could be in certain situations, which is like really, really, really served me. So I’ve learned more about water intelligence. I’ve realized I am. And then I continue to work on it because for me, it’s like you’re constantly working on things like this. But

 

Dr Mary Collins (22:15.086)

Bye.

 

Lucy Gernon (22:24.649)

How would you define emotional intelligence in a way that feels relatable for the everyday leader?

 

Dr Mary Collins (22:32.811)

Yeah, great question. So emotional intelligence to me quite simply is understanding and recognising your own emotions. That’s the first part. And then recognising and understanding emotions in people around you. And almost that reading the room, having that awareness of what’s going on, a bit like what you said there, Lucy, know, growing up, you had to develop that social intelligence. So

 

You’re just aware of how other people are. And the third really important aspect of emotional intelligence that I think a lot of people overlook, it keeps you self motivated. So people high in emotional intelligence have really high levels of self motivation. Yeah, yeah. So I think when we go back to the dark days of the pandemic, God forbid, we’re ever back there again.

 

Lucy Gernon (23:21.821)

Wow, how come?

 

Dr Mary Collins (23:30.914)

But for me, that’s where it really shone through. So the people who were very connected in with their self-knowing, who were flexible and adaptable, who were optimistic and who had strong connections and relationships, they were the ones that stayed motivated. And I think some not only survived, but really flourished. You know, I have some…

 

some good friends who were entrepreneurs. When I looked at how they flexed and adapt during that time, I’m still in awe of some of them, what they achieved during those dark days.

 

Lucy Gernon (24:11.005)

Hmm. Amazing. And like if somebody is, you know, I’m really hearing that it’s a really important skill, not only for others, but also for yourself, because like you’re more motivated and all those things like you said. If somebody because I’ve seen it with people close to me and I’ve seen it with people I work with, where some people just don’t allow or can’t allow themselves to experience emotion, as in they cannot connect with.

 

They can’t, find it difficult to be empathetic because they don’t, they don’t understand. Like I have, I know somebody who literally could not name like the emotion she was feeling, like she couldn’t name it. So where do you start if you’re, and again, I work with some women who would be quite analytically minded, who don’t, haven’t opened up that side to themselves yet. Where do you start?

 

Dr Mary Collins (25:04.598)

Yeah, well, I think it’s, you know, it’s about why is it important to be able to name your how you’re feeling and your emotions? Well, it’s a really interesting study in Harvard and I like to call it the name it to tame it. So if you are feeling, let’s say a high negative emotion like anxiety. If you actually just name that emotion, say, I’m actually feeling really anxious today. And ideally you share that with a trusted confidant.

 

we can reduce the negative impact of that emotion by about 20 percent. So just by naming it. So just that whole process of just connecting in with what the emotion is and sharing it with somebody or journaling about it can help us tunnel through that emotion. And the word emotion, Lucy, comes from the Latin word motus spiritus, which means movement of the spirit. And I love this.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:38.761)

just by naming it.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:59.807)

Dr Mary Collins (26:01.964)

Because emotions are like running through us all the time. And it’s really important that we, particularly with the negative emotions, we have to work through them, tunnel through them, because if we don’t, they just build up, build up, and then it’s like, you know, someone absolutely has just blows up. But to your point, a lot of people, one of the signs of burnout we know is that depersonalization or disconnection.

 

So, you know, when people are burnt out, they find it really hard actually to connect in with their emotions. And I’m really keen and I do this with my children every night on developing their emotional literacy. So Brené Brown says, you know, most people are feeling good, bad or meh. We tend to have like three emotions, good, bad or meh.

 

Lucy Gernon (26:44.415)

Okay.

 

Lucy Gernon (26:50.759)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (26:54.392)

But actually, let’s really start to drill down and get more literate around our emotions. So, you know, if you’re feeling a bit sad, for example, are you disappointed? Are you tired? Are you like, what is it? Are you lonely? So really drilling down. And I do practice each night with my children and it is about just checking in. OK, give me your three emotions. How are you?

 

And I think that’s a really, it’s a really nice, I don’t know how long now they let me do this for. say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is. But I think as early as you can. And there is an amazing app, Lucy, I’ve just come across recently, actually, it’s called How We Feel.

 

Lucy Gernon (27:30.867)

I was going to say my kids are like, mom, stop it. All this coach stuff. Like they just don’t want to know. Well, one or two of them are slightly open. It’s funny, isn’t it?

 

Dr Mary Collins (27:49.974)

And you just log on and it has just four quadrants that you click on. Are you feeling a high, high positive emotion like I am right now talking to you? You click on that or is it a low positive emotion? Maybe if you’re a bit tired, a high negative emotion like anxiety or a low negative emotion like depression or sadness. So you click on that and then it opens up this whole other world of emotion that you can select.

 

and it gives you the option to do a little journaling about it. So I tap into that. You can set reminder on your phone every morning and every evening. That’s one of my practices that I do.

 

Lucy Gernon (28:20.191)

race.

 

Lucy Gernon (28:27.967)

I love that. It’s like I in one of my courses, I have a course called Executive Presence Blueprint and there’s in there in one of them. It talks about the emotions, but I have like a feeling wheel in there where you can. So it sounds like this is like a feeling wheel on steroids that will it will literally just guide you through in, you know, into the deeper emotions. And I love that. Definitely going to go get that up. And why is it beneficial? I know. OK, I know exactly what you’re going to say.

 

Dr Mary Collins (28:49.741)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (28:54.05)

Ha

 

Lucy Gernon (28:54.141)

Why is beneficial for my women leaders who are listening to really start to connect inward?

 

Dr Mary Collins (29:01.174)

Hmm. So I believe inner peace gives you outer power. Hmm. So when we understand and manage our emotions, we’re more grounded, we’re calmer and we’re less impacted by other people’s moods. You know, we’re less thrown off by their moods and we can respond and not react in situations.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:08.735)

Ooh.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:29.599)

So it’s quite an important one, right? Yeah, quite an important one. I’ll share a quick story as well. I think I may have shared this on the show before, but last year I worked with somebody, a coach who specializes in this whole area of like emotional regulation because I have what I’m about to be diagnosed officially. I’m sure in May I have ADHD. I’m pretty sure I do. So emotional regulation is something that I really struggle with.

 

Dr Mary Collins (29:32.088)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:57.991)

And because I’m really high on empathy, I really feel people’s other people’s emotions. And I take this on. And I remember being in a coaching session with her and we were talking about something and I started to get really emotional and I started to get upset and instantly I started to fight it. And she just said to me, she was just like, just ride the wave, like ride the wave of motion. You’re going to be OK. And so I was at the peak of it maybe for a minute or two as we discussed it.

 

And eventually, you know, like you said, that 20 percent of naming your emotion supports you. So I went through it and then I came through it after maybe three minutes, four minutes. It was hard at the intensity of that peak. But she said to me after that, she said, OK, how are you feeling now? And I was like, I feel fine. And she said, OK, so I want you to remember that you just rode the wave. And every time you’re experiencing a negative emotion, I want you to remember this moment and remember that you you got through it.

 

You survived emotions are not going to kill you. And it just really stuck with me because if you’re a lot of people find it, I know I do, but a lot of other people find it very difficult to deal with negative emotions and they push them so far down because they don’t want to deal with them. But I think that that is robbing you of who you could become. And I think all the magic is in is in dealing with all of that stuff. So what do you what would you say to that?

 

Dr Mary Collins (31:21.71)

Yeah, I love that, Lucy. And even that image, the metaphor of riding the wave, is just, that’s wonderful because it is about, you know, that acceptance as well, self-acceptance. That, I’m really finding this really tough at the moment, or it’s really really intense emotion, but I know it will pass. You know, it is moving through me and it will pass. And I, you know,

 

maybe because I’m married to an engineer, but that notion of tunneling through emotions, that really works for me as well, like working through them. And that’s the real value, isn’t it, of having a great coach like that person you worked with or a mentor or even, you know, just a really good friend and confidant that we can have these conversations with.

 

Lucy Gernon (32:11.955)

Yeah. And emotions are nothing to be afraid of. think sometimes I think, guys, if you’re multitasking, come back to me because Mary is going to share like some amazing stuff. But one thing I want you to know from my my perspective on this before I go back to Mary is like, emotions are not something you need to be afraid of. They are not going to kill you. And when you allow yourself to experience them and move through them, like Mary had said, it’s you know, it’s your spirit moving through you. It’s going to be the thing that’s going to help you to unlock.

 

your next level and to continue to grow and to learn. yeah, just wanted to share that insight.

 

Dr Mary Collins (32:44.846)

Yeah, absolutely Lucy. And more than that, you know, when we look at the leadership research, we know the most successful leaders globally, we know two things. One, they have high IQ. So they have the smarts. Like I think most of your listeners, they’re smart. That’s how they’ve got where they are. But what differentiates the great leaders is they have a high IQ and a high EQ.

 

Lucy Gernon (33:11.312)

Mmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (33:12.278)

and they don’t always go together. I see it in my world a lot. You know, we find, you know, super smart people don’t always have the EQ to match, but the good news is we can, it’s harder to shift the IQ, let’s be honest, but the emotional intelligence can be developed. It’s like a muscle that we can work on all the time.

 

Lucy Gernon (33:17.245)

Yep.

 

Lucy Gernon (33:27.081)

Yup.

 

Lucy Gernon (33:34.815)

So that brings me on to your book. Okay, so Mary has written a book and it’s all centered around the three core areas of EQ. So can you walk us through those and why you chose to focus on these three areas in your new book?

 

Dr Mary Collins (33:37.164)

Mmm.

 

Dr Mary Collins (33:46.378)

Sure, Lucy, this is my baby. Emotional Intelligence in Dentistry. So this book was launched last month. And just to say it is very niche dentistry. But the reason I decided to write a book for this for dentists, actually, as I mentioned, the EQ areas are relevant for everyone. But dentistry in particular as a profession, you may or may not know.

 

Dentists have the highest levels of alcoholism, depression, high suicide rates, high burnout. It’s a very, very difficult profession and little to no in dental training. There’s very little around the psychology, regulation, your emotions. mean, think about it. Who actually wants to go to the dentist? And as one of them said to me recently, she said, Mary, you know, about six times a day.

 

People come in, go, I hate dentists. Can you imagine hearing that all the time? Yeah, yeah. So and it is it’s a lonely profession. anyway, there are all the reasons I decided to write it for dentists. I focused in on key areas of emotional intelligence that we know dentists are significantly lower on from some research I was involved with.

 

Lucy Gernon (34:46.303)

god, never thought of that. Wow.

 

Dr Mary Collins (35:12.162)

But if I was to just draw out three that I think for women in leadership, Lucy, in particular, because I know your audience is very much in that space. I think that’s the self-regulation or self-control is so important. So less reacting, more responding.

 

Lucy Gernon (35:31.251)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (35:36.923)

How? How do we do this? How do we do this, Mary? Is there a pill?

 

Dr Mary Collins (35:41.249)

And it’s really hard, you know, if you’re tired and you’re, you know, juggling a hundred things, I mean, we do tend to react first, but there is a brilliant book called One Second Ahead by Rasmus Hogarth. I know if you’ve come across Rasmus Hogarth. And it’s a really simple concept, which is literally you have to be one second ahead of your emotional reaction.

 

Lucy Gernon (36:05.055)

Wow.

 

Dr Mary Collins (36:05.228)

And that can be as simple, Lucy, as just, you know, when you feel yourself getting, just to do that, double the exhale, just take that breath. mean, ideally you take two or three, but just to respond in a calm, composed way and don’t go with that, know, instinctive reaction. So that’s the first thing is to be less reactive, more responding to situations.

 

Then the other area is around developing self-confidence. Now, particularly for women, know, sadly, we’re seeing in the studies millennial Gen Z women are still plagued with imposter syndrome. Now, it’s definitely improved. Our levels of self-confidence are closer to the male levels, but men are still higher on self-confidence than women. So that is

 

you know, really developing. I like to think of it being comfortable in your own skin. And dare I say it’s one of the benefits of midlife is becoming more comfortable. I love the ability, you know, at this point in life, the integration of your knowledge, your experience, your wisdom. I think it’s a really great time to integrate all of that and really believe in yourself. Easier said than done, I know.

 

Lucy Gernon (37:15.774)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (37:35.694)

So developing that self-confidence, really focusing on your strengths. So I’m a huge believer in the work, positive psychology work around strengths. And for any of your listeners, if you haven’t done, it’s a free online profile that’s grounded in really good science and it’s called the BIA, the Values in Action Questionnaire.

 

It’s great just identifying what are my top five strengths and how can I engage with them every day? And what’s really interesting, we know people who engage with their strengths are nine times more likely to be flourishing in the world. Isn’t that fascinating?

 

Lucy Gernon (38:19.067)

It is absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating guys. You heard it here from from Dr. Mary as well. I’ve studied positive psychology as well. I’ve done a quote and certification. And when I did the VIA character strength, like the thing is, guys, going back to what Mary has said multiple times during this interview is it’s about your, you know, knowing yourself, your inner knowing. And when you do strengths assessments like that, VIA one, or if you do the Gallup, the Clifton strengths or any of those.

 

Dr Mary Collins (38:26.478)

Bye.

 

Lucy Gernon (38:47.229)

I remember the first time I did them. Your strengths are so ingrained with who you are, you normally can’t even see them as strengths. And I remember when I did that VIA one, the I think that my top strength, if I remember correctly, well, one of them was, it called beauty and beauty and awe or excellence? Appreciation. Yeah, beauty and excellence. And I didn’t realize that was a strength because I tend to see

 

Dr Mary Collins (39:04.398)

appreciation of beauty. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (39:11.623)

I tend to see things in people that they don’t see in themselves, which is why I love being a coach, because I can help with kind of confidence. But I didn’t realize that was even a strength of mine. It’s the same when I did the Gallup Strengths Test. I had no idea that one of my top strengths was like achiever and like strategic and communication. I thought I was stupid because of my narrative. Right. So I think what’s really powerful is we’ll pop the link in the show notes guide to that VIA Character Strengths Test, because it’s totally free. And like Mary said, it’s backed in science.

 

Dr Mary Collins (39:35.342)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lucy Gernon (39:41.331)

You go and do that and then you’re going to you’re going to realize that actually you’re not as bad as you think you are. You’re actually fantastic.

 

Dr Mary Collins (39:48.308)

Yeah, that’s really interesting, Lucy. I don’t think I’ve ever come across anyone that has that appreciation of beauty and excellence as the top one. And it’s a great one to have at the top.

 

Lucy Gernon (39:57.181)

I think it’s like my second, it’s definitely in my top three. Like I walk around and I’m looking at the trees and I just feel so grateful. Like gratitude is one of my other ones, you know, though it means when you’re in that state, you know, I try to live in a high vibe where I can. But I do allow myself the emotions as well, because we’ve got to, right? We’ve got to. So on the other tips for us then, Mary, on the emotional intelligence. So you had said like obviously about working your confidence.

 

Dr Mary Collins (40:03.278)

Yep.

 

Dr Mary Collins (40:15.884)

You’ve got it, absolutely!

 

Lucy Gernon (40:23.987)

knowing your strengths, applying positive psychology approaches, knowing yourself. What else?

 

Dr Mary Collins (40:29.646)

So the other one I would really draw out is developing your empathy skills. As I mentioned, empathy is really on the decline. And if you strip it right back, Lucy, what is empathy? Empathy is truly giving somebody your full presence and attention. And we know the attention spans now of an Irish adult are about seven seconds.

 

Like they’re just declining, declining. And I even find it, do you notice yourself? My attention has got shockingly bad because we’re so distracted with screens all the time and not even reading books anymore. I read something yesterday that only 50 % of adults, Irish adults had read a book last year. I was like, wow, only 50 % of the population have read a book. It’s all, you know, we’re all just reading like summaries and,

 

just getting the key points, but we’re not actually immersing ourselves and developing that reflective practice. So for me, building empathy, it will make you a much stronger communicator. As I said, it’s not about being nice, it’s about being really effective with your relationships. And particularly, as you said, with tricky people, you know, really building that sense of…

 

understanding and connection with them and truly listening, giving them your full undivided attention. you know, little things that we know that if you have a phone between you, even if it’s turned on silent or turned over, it’s still a block. So I always say, you know, get rid of the smartwatches, get rid of the put, just get them out of sight. If you want to have a meaningful conversation with someone to really build that skill of truly being present and truly listening to someone.

 

Lucy Gernon (42:16.989)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (42:22.845)

Yeah, I know. I guys, I love that. And, know, full disclosure, my phone and I are our best friends and worst enemies. So it’s something I’m definitely trying to practice as well, because you’re so right. If it’s even in the vicinity or it wasn’t there, was there another study that was done? You’ll probably know this because I don’t know the stats of the study. But if you’re if you’re speaking to somebody and you have your phone even in your hands and like even if you’re not on your phone, if it’s even just here.

 

Dr Mary Collins (42:28.374)

I know.

 

Lucy Gernon (42:50.013)

Like the trust and safety, if you’re with your team, goes down by like 70 % because it’s like you’re not really present.

 

Dr Mary Collins (42:57.42)

Yeah, absolutely. it’s really that’s that’s absolutely the case. But I think our children, I know my daughter anyway, keeps me on my toes and, know, we can’t be telling our children, you know, get off your devices, get off your phones if we’re not good role models. And that one really hits me hard. You know, when your 14 year old says to you, you’re always on your phone.

 

Lucy Gernon (43:14.024)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (43:18.781)

I know. the phone. Give us back the old ring ring and go meet me at six o’clock on the, you know, simpler times. Listen, Mary, you’ve been an absolutely fantastic guest. would chat to you all day on this topic because it’s one that’s very close to my heart. I’m really, really grateful that you took the time to share your wisdom with our audience and your new book sounds amazing. And guys, even though it’s for dentists, it doesn’t matter. You can go and buy it. It’s going to have some fantastic tips in the book.

 

Dr Mary Collins (43:23.448)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (43:49.011)

So Mary, there’s two questions I always ask my guests. The first one is what do success, balance and happiness mean to you?

 

Dr Mary Collins (43:57.998)

Success, balance and happiness. know, Lucy, for me, it’s about having choices in the world and having agency around where I channel my energy, where I spend my time, how I can do my best work and have the best impact in my life. So, yeah, for me it is.

 

you know, being in a place where I do have choice and agency.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:28.831)

I love that. And the second question, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received or one of them?

 

Dr Mary Collins (44:34.958)

So I’m going to keep this really 101 basic. My grandmother always said. Prioritize a good night’s sleep. So sleep for me, I mean, I work in, do a lot of work in the Center for Positive Health Sciences. We do a lot around well-being, resilience. Sleep is the lead domino and really basic. But if you do not prioritize your sleep, everything else gets impacted.

 

And particularly I find that inner critic gets a lot more active when you’re tired, you start to see shadows and darkness. So get a good night’s sleep.

 

Lucy Gernon (45:16.039)

OK, I love that. And I actually would love to ask you so many questions on that. But I think that’s a whole other episode because people are going to be going, but how do I get a good night’s sleep? How do I do it? All the entrepreneurs that I’m hanging out with, they all have those aura rings now, is that what they’re called? The aura rings and like all these crazy things. So ladies, heard it here. Get some sleep. You’ll be much better for it. Mary, where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you do?

 

Dr Mary Collins (45:21.665)

You

 

Dr Mary Collins (45:41.418)

well, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me, Lucy. Dr. Mary Collins on LinkedIn, and I’d love to connect with your listeners. And thank you so much for having me. And I just wanted also to recognise what you shared with us about your ADHD and just wish you all the very best with that in May, I think you said, yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (46:01.329)

thank you so much. There’ll be an episode coming on it. we will link Mary’s LinkedIn in the show notes and go and check her out. You can tell she’s a wealth of knowledge. And I’m very grateful that you shared your expertise in the show. Thanks so much, Mary.

 

Dr Mary Collins (46:03.809)

Yeah.

 

Dr Mary Collins (46:15.256)

Thank you, Lucy. Bye.