#198 From Playing Small to Leading Boldly: How ONE Decision Fueled the Confidence + Career Acceleration of Two Senior Managers in STEM

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the 360 Leadership podcast. I am absolutely delighted today to be joined by two incredible senior managers. One lady is called Sandra Grogan and the other is Marie Kinsla and they are 360 members. And the reason I brought them on the show is because I'm hearing from so many people lately around.

you know, not feeling confident in your roles. You might look confident on the outside, but maybe you're not so much confident on the inside, which is so common with high achieving women, which is ironic. And also around like how to juggle work life balance. How do we juggle it all? How do we advocate for ourselves as females in the workplace? So I'm delighted to introduce the two girls on the show who are going to share their stories about how they have, you know, had career success.

while also juggling a busy family life as well. So girls, you are very welcome to the show today. How are you both doing?

Sandra Grogan (00:59.873)
Good. Thanks, Ippi.

Marie (01:00.186)
Thanks very much Lucy, yeah, feeling good.

Lucy Gernon (01:02.026)
So without further ado, I will get you both to introduce yourselves. So the dreaded introducing yourself and I'll start with you, Sandra, if you can maybe just share like a little bit about who you are and what you do. And yeah, we'll take it from there.

Sandra Grogan (01:16.727)
Hi everyone, so I'm Sandra. I work in the medical device industry for the past 18 years. I've been working in various roles over those years, currently working as a senior manager on a global business transformation project. So I'm also a mum of two kiddos, so balancing career and work life, that's enough to keep me on my toes.

Lucy Gernon (01:37.994)
Absolutely. And you have a nice social life as well though Sandra, like we're friends on Instagram so. Marie, do you want to introduce yourself as well?

Sandra Grogan (01:40.535)
I do. I get up and about.

Marie (01:47.583)
Yeah. Hi everyone. I'm Marie. I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I've been there for about eight years. Prior to that, I've worked in the medical device industry. So about 15 years overall in the industry. So at the moment, my role is a senior manager in an NPI in the pharmaceutical industry. So quite busy, keeps us on our toes. And same as Sandra, I have two kids. So yeah, the juggle is ongoing and trying to get that balance to teamwork.

and family life.

Lucy Gernon (02:18.888)
Yeah, absolutely. And I'd love to know from, I'll start with you, Sandra, like you're both women in STEM, which is obviously my background as well, which is why so many people I work with are in STEM, but obviously there's other people I work with who are in finance and different industries as well, retail, all sorts. But I'm really curious, like what drew you particularly, Sandra, to your industry first? Like what drew you to what you're doing today?

Sandra Grogan (02:42.807)
I didn't see a direct line from what I'm doing today to what I started out as my career. Like it's just developed over time. In school, the subject I preferred the most were like science and maths. I just liked things that had answers that you could work through, work out. I started as a lab tech in a company, worked there for a while, got into lean, went on and did a Six Sigma Black Belt. And it's just kind of developed from one to the other.

Like just being like having a science background, just, that has kind of opened up doors. And as I've gone through roles, they've just developed into something else to where I am today. I didn't, I, 10 years ago, I wouldn't have envisaged this position, but I'm happy that I've developed into this position and hopefully go on from here.

Lucy Gernon (03:29.994)
Amazing. And I'm curious what like when obviously like we're thinking about 10 years, I mean, you're a totally different person than you are today. Like if you look at like the your progression from, you know, this where you are now to kind of what you're doing, like tell me a little bit more about the journey, because I know there's some people who are younger in their career who are listening to the show as well. Like how did you, you know, start to rise up through to management?

Sandra Grogan (03:55.543)
I think in the role that I was in, just, I did the best that I could in those roles. And someone kind of gave me that advice years ago. were like, in the role that you're in, make it that everyone wants you on their team. So like, I just worked really hard in each one. And then I got like just progression to other ones. And most of the time I got picked for roles to go like, know, for added responsibility. So I think when you're in the role that you're in, do the best that you can in it. And

Like think big picture where you can and then opportunities will come. I think they come to you to get to a certain level and then you have to be more purposeful as you go into management to make the next levels happen, which is why then I went back and did an MBA a couple of years ago and then joined 360. Cause I was, needed something more. think a certain amount of it brings you to a certain level and then you have to be more proactive to get higher up in management.

Lucy Gernon (04:51.708)
Absolutely great advice there. And what would you say, Marie?

Marie (04:56.213)
I would say very similar to Sandra, right? If I was giving advice to somebody, I would say like that you have to just kind of go all in, think, in the early years. And I suppose that's what I would have done. And I would have always put work at like a big high priority. I would have been very, very organized as well. Like I wouldn't say I had anything that made me stand out from a scientific perspective. I was strong scientifically, but I think it's more the soft skills are what get you noticed.

you know, being someone that people can depend on, they know you're going to be ready, reliable, I think that's what makes you stand out in the early years. And again, similar to Sandra, I would have been always kind of approached for roles and to go for them. And I think it was that aspect, like the strong, soft skills that kind of got me, you know, to make me stand out and be that person that was approached. And I guess similar to Sandra, as time has gone on,

I ended up in the pharmaceutical industry. I kind of went into more of an SME role and I've been in it for a couple of years and I kind of felt like I needed that little bit of extra help to get me to the next level. And that's where I started my coaching journey. So enter 360 six months ago. And it's just, it's been amazing for me. it's, it's having that access to those tools.

Lucy Gernon (06:10.762)
No.

Marie (06:23.015)
to help you take the next step. And in the last couple of months, I've been able to take that next step. And I do think like that, you kind of need that coaching or that training to kind of get behind you as you get a little bit more senior.

Lucy Gernon (06:37.692)
Yeah, my God, I love to hear that. after I seek massive, massive congratulations. So obviously you've recently been promoted, which is super. And you mentioned there that, you know, and I think it's so, so true what both of you have said that for so many years you're touching the shoulder, you work really hard, but then as you get to, you know, a senior manager, associate director level, it's so important to do the opposite, I believe, because I feel like

when you get to that, kind of, think your confidence around this level really does start to develop. And obviously that's a lot of the work we do, obviously in 360 as well. And the thing is like, when I say confidence, I just want to be really clear to everyone who's listening. Most of the women that I work with and me included can come across as super confident on the outside or not, by the way. You can have people who come across as absolutely not confident and they actually are internally.

So what you see externally doesn't always match kind of the internal thing that's going on, the self-doubt, the second guessing. So to anybody listening, because I hear this all the time from people who listen to the show and hear members on, I want you to know that if you're second guessing yourself or doubting your decisions, there's not a female leader I've ever met, myself included, who doesn't do that at occasion. So can you tell me a little bit, Marie, how 360 specifically supported you?

with the promotion like was.

Marie (08:00.547)
Yeah, so I suppose there's a few things really. I have been working on one of your tools called the executive presence and I think that was a major thing for me. So part of that is kind of coaching yourself to be more authentic to yourself. I would have found that sometimes I would feel like I had to fit into a certain mould and maybe not present my full personality at work.

So I had been very much working on that.

Lucy Gernon (08:31.05)
And what did you do? When you say you worked in that, because again, these are things that you're not alone in, it's literally so common, me included, for a long time. How did you work on it? Because authenticity is huge in leadership. The higher you go, the more authentic, actually, I believe you need to be.

Marie (08:40.506)
Yeah.

Marie (08:47.423)
Yeah, and I suppose it's like I kind of give myself permission to drop the persona that I had, right? And I just felt like, okay, I'm just going to show up as I am, coaching myself as I am, and let's just see what happens. Okay. And that's the part that maybe got me recognized. you know, started to speak a little more freely in meetings.

I wasn't like second guessing myself. I was trying to actually just say what I taught and you know, rather than hold the back and thinking, no, I can't ask that. That's not, that's a silly question. I would just coach myself, just ask the question, just say what you think and see what happens. And that to me was being more authentic to myself.

Lucy Gernon (09:34.538)
And what did happen in those situations when you did that?

Marie (09:40.842)
Like nothing happened really, everyone received nothing. Nothing bad happened. Everyone just takes your insight and they roll with it. you kind of start to realise like, OK, I can say those things and I can show up as myself and nothing untoward is going to happen. Quite the opposite. That was kind of why somebody mentioned to me about going for the role at the next level. I genuinely hadn't considered going for it.

Lucy Gernon (09:44.276)
There we go.

Marie (10:09.853)
really hadn't until somebody said it to me that said that you're kind of showing up a little bit differently. You're not as quiet. You're speaking your mind a bit more. And they said, why don't you just go for that role and see what happens? And I'm like, OK, right. I'll give it a go. And lo and behold, I ended up getting it. And so it just goes to show like there is, you know, if you do kind of work on the tools that are entry 60, they can help you and,

to get that recognition.

Lucy Gernon (10:42.386)
Yeah. my God. I love that. And I'm curious, like, was there any specific feedback that you've got in work since joining? has anyone, I know you said there, like, can you think of like a story or a specific instance where maybe somebody said something and you were like,

Marie (10:57.869)
Yeah, actually. Another thing I've been kind of trying to coach myself through was the whole imperfect action piece that we talk about a lot in 360. And really I suppose a lot of the time I would have been kind of procrastinating a little bit until like things were perfect and in the perfect space. And really I was holding myself back.

So I suppose six months ago, I'd been taking on more projects and I suppose old me would have maybe, like I said, procrastinated, hung back a little bit. But I've been taking the 360 advice of just take the action, even if it's not perfect, just take the action. And the difference that has made, like I'm getting projects moving, people are noticing that, you know, things are moving much quicker. And again, nothing.

nothing untoward like I had envisaged would happen happened. Everything went fine. So it's just it's yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's all it's just around that mindset shift really, yeah.

Lucy Gernon (11:59.656)
better than fine.

Lucy Gernon (12:05.702)
my goodness, I love that. like one thing I'm curious to understand is I know you mentioned the executive presence course that we have and things, there any other like, you know, we obviously bring in guests or not guests, we have our CPD accredited leadership training now and different guests come in things. Are there any other modules or tools that you found really useful? Like any specifics?

Marie (12:27.339)
Yes, absolutely. suppose the whole work-life balance modules as well, I've been really, really honing in on. And that would be more like the delegation piece, you know, the prioritization. I have a young family and I want to be there for them. I don't want to miss out on my kids' childhoods. I don't want to have regrets. I am the type of person that does go all in on work. And sometimes I have to kind of pull myself back and put those boundaries in place. That was another reason why I joined 360. So...

that those things would have been extremely useful for me. You know, it's some of the tools that kind of give you the confidence to say no to certain meetings or taking your time back so you can work on your own work, your own projects, the bigger picture, and you have time to do that and you're not trying to do it in evening after you've dealt with everybody else's stuff and you're firefighting. So I've found those tools really, really powerful.

Lucy Gernon (13:14.612)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (13:25.034)
Amazing. Would you say then you've got more time back? What are doing with that time now instead?

Marie (13:29.906)
Yeah, I definitely have more time back. feel like I'm still doing my job to a really high standard, but I'm not letting it take over my life, I would say. I've kind of made it a boundary for myself not to be working in the evenings. Sometimes you have to, sometimes there is major things going on. That's fine. But as a rule, I would try not to be working in the evenings. You know, so I have time with the kids in the evenings.

in school, they're in play school all day. It's just to have that little bit of space in the evening and not to be trying to rush them off to bed, you know, and have that little bit of time with them. You can read them their stories and, you know, try to do a little bit of exercise. And still, it's not impacting your role at all. You're still able to do your job as well as you have been. You're just doing it a bit more mindfully, I think.

Lucy Gernon (14:18.41)
Mm. my God. I love that. And one thing about Marie, we were just chatting off air, which is hilarious, really, is that you you're not you don't always come to the all of the live calls, whereas Sandra was beaten. mean, Sandra is like religiously at the calls and like, not really most of the time. I should miss a mass on a Sunday, Sandra. And but it's funny because I designed 360 in the system that I'm actually going to be sharing with you guys in the community and I'm going to be sharing publicly because I've been thinking about like.

Marie (14:32.765)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (14:46.442)
My vision for 360 was that you guys are busy female leaders, right? You cannot attend every single call, but what the biggest principle in 360 is all around results focused thinking, right? So if you think about the results, you've been able to get huge results by actually just using the tools and the trainings that are available and then, you know, attending live when you can, right? And so how have you like, how have you found the community element of 360 is Elmery just before I move over to Sandra?

Marie (14:50.472)
Mm-hmm.

Marie (15:08.882)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marie (15:16.744)
Brilliant. Like I said, I wouldn't be the best at attending all the live calls, but I always try and catch up in the evenings, listen to the recordings. I find the community element fantastic. I find myself in work from having a doubtful moment or I feel myself slipping back into old habits. All I have to do is just go into the community and I see somebody else is having a similar situation, what advice they've got.

Or I just have to have a little look through the tools myself. And it puts me straight back into that mindset. Whereas if I was left to my own devices, like, you know, I would probably slip back into my old ways and linger there. You know, for me, it's kind of being able to jump back into the right mindset very quickly, that community.

Lucy Gernon (15:51.785)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (16:04.276)
I love that. like, what was the aha moment? Because there's usually a moment for people when they join 360. There's usually like the straw that broke the camel's back or there's some little light bulb that goes off and that make you take that made you take the plunge to join. Do you remember what it was?

Marie (16:20.423)
I don't know if it was a single moment. It was more just a feeling for a long time. I was feeling very tired. I felt like I wasn't having enough time with my kids. And I suppose that's what led me to start looking for ways to kind of maximise my time for courses. And that's what led me to 360. Actually, myself and Lucy would have worked in the same.

same bar as pharmaceutical industry so I knew Lucy was going to be an excellent coach and I suppose I just took the plunge and I'm just so happy that I did.

Lucy Gernon (16:59.338)
And like you said there as well that you know were feeling tired for a long time and you were thinking about a long time Do you regret not joining sooner and why?

Marie (17:04.005)
Hmm.

Marie (17:09.525)
Yeah, I do. I suppose I feel like for the last couple of years, even I've been working at a very, very high level, long hours, but without having those tools or that knowledge. And I just wish I had it sooner when the kids were a little bit younger. So I got to put those, put those tools in place for myself to have that bit of extra time to have that clarity, you know, to be able to delegate more. So yeah, if I could go back in time and do this sooner, definitely would. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (17:37.514)
And were there any reservations that came up for you when you were going to join? Because like fear often comes up with these things, isn't it?

Marie (17:43.556)
Yeah, fear and I suppose like it is an investment, know, you're kind of thinking like, you know, maybe I'll do this, or maybe I can bring the family on a holiday or you know, there's all these things going through your head. It's like, will I be able to commit to it was another thing. So they were all the reservations and I

I'm not really sure what happened, but I just said, just go for it and just try it. And I'm just, I'm so happy that I did it. Like I said, it's an investment, but for me it's in worth every single penny in the returns that I've got personally and professionally.

Lucy Gernon (18:20.49)
Oh my God. And you've renewed as well to stay with us for another year. like, oh, I just, I'm so proud of you for doing it, all of you, because I feel like investing yourself as a female and it is an investment. It's not a cost because like, that's the thing that we have to think about is, you know, the cost is lost time for family, right? The cost is not progressing, all those things. So I'm delighted that you, took the plunge and I look forward to another, another year in 360. can't wait to see then.

Marie (18:23.126)
Yet. Yet.

Marie (18:31.841)
Yeah.

Marie (18:36.131)
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Marie (18:46.295)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (18:48.33)
Wanda, over to you. Tell me a little bit recent, I suppose about why you joined 360 and like your evolution over the last 18 months.

Sandra Grogan (18:57.505)
Why I joined 360. So I, couple of years ago, went back, I said it earlier, and did an MBA. And then when I finished that, out of that, I got this senior manager position. But I kind of knew there was something missing, like there was something more. I remember talking to you at the time going, I think I have more potential, but I don't know how to unlock it, if that's the right word. So I had been listening to your podcast for ages, and I was like, just, love.

practical advice and I was like this I think this is the woman that I need to have in my life and for coaching so yeah I like that was a bit hesitant and will I do it and won't I and all that but then it was just before Christmas actually when I messaged I said I'm gonna hit me into the new year with a coach and that's what I did so haven't looked back since still here 18 months later

Lucy Gernon (19:46.066)
you're still here 18 months later. my goodness. And tell me about the difference in Sandra before. if you can't, cause I know as you grow, it's not really until you really pause. And like, if you were to just try to cast your mind back 18 months to who you were, cause I just can't like the evolution of you I've seen is huge. You before versus now, like what's the difference?

Sandra Grogan (20:13.163)
big difference. The underlying difference is like a sense of confidence, which is what I wanted to work on. And I I have mind set shift in certain ways. So like I've got feedback from my manager that she's seen a change in me. Now I have told her that I was working with a coach and all that, but she said she did see, she sees like I'm turning up differently and more confident in situations. Like in a recent performance review, she was like, you've got a good...

balance of like urgency and empathy. And I was like, okay, this is good. And I think the empathy part is what stood out to me when she said it to me. And it's not that I wouldn't have empathized with people before. I think I'm more confident to speak up for people now. You know, like in a work, I can do it more for my team. And then I got feedback as well. You had invited us to ask for feedback, you know, asking people, what do they like working about you?

And I sent that out to people and it's so simple because it's just one question, but I sent it out to five people and I got some consistent feedback as well. another thing that they said is the what I deliver is one thing, but it's the how that kind of stood out for them. So, and that meant a lot to me because I don't believe in winning at all costs. I think there are things that are too much and it's hard to, I try and protect my team from like noise and kind of help them.

with kind of provide clarity and push back when they need it, so that they can grow and develop. But I'm more confident in how I show up, so can show up for them better. So think it's a good win-win.

Lucy Gernon (21:50.794)
And have your team notice the differences about what you say.

Sandra Grogan (21:54.613)
Yes, yeah. And I've had, like, we talk all the time and yes, so we were doing mid-year reviews and then I always ask, if there's, you know, is there something that I can help them with or kind of have open conversations and they have, they've said they've seen a difference. One of them was actually really surprised when I said confidence was something I had been working on because I had told them I was working with a coach. But that's to your point earlier, you can appear outwardly confident, but not and be struggling internally. So that's, yeah.

Lucy Gernon (22:07.873)
my God.

Marie (22:16.56)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (22:20.784)
and thank you both so much for being so candid and honest on the show because we need more authenticity in the business world. men included, by the way, it's not just women as well. So I'm just so grateful that you're going to inspire so many women who are listening going, my goodness, I did not think, you know, and this is how we, this is how we change the world together. And like, can you think of Sandra maybe a specific example if you can? I feel like I'm interviewing you now. Can you give me a specific example?

Marie (22:30.086)
Mm-hmm.

Marie (22:39.522)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (22:47.506)
If you can think of a specific example, maybe of a situation where you did show up with more confidence and it's maybe where you might shied away before.

Sandra Grogan (22:56.459)
Yeah. And I tell you that the background to this one was we were in a coaching session, Lucy, and something that you said really stuck with me. And you said that confidence is a decision. And I was like, OK, never thought of it like that before. This is a bit of a mindset shift. And a couple of weeks later, I had like a big project update to do, not a senior leaders there. And I was like, OK, like I would have been a bit hesitant to second guess myself. And I was like, OK, I'm going to do this differently.

Marie (23:10.618)
you

Sandra Grogan (23:25.783)
making the decision, show up confidently, and I did. And afterwards, someone actually came up to me and told me that I was a great public speaker. Now, that has never happened before, but it's the whole thing. If you're projecting confidence, the audience can see that, and that's what conveyed. So yeah, I couldn't believe it. After that, it was just an example of how it can work.

Marie (23:36.761)
you

Lucy Gernon (23:48.465)
my God, I love that. And like you're doing, what other things are you doing now that's different than what you would normally done like in terms of your communication upwards.

Sandra Grogan (23:58.551)
Communication upwards, yes. So I've done a good bit of that and other work on like storytelling. So that's been done. I've sent updates, like I'm doing kind of extra comms work within our team to be able to communicate up and be like effective at letting people know the work that the team is doing. So I think there's improvements there. Marie touched on something too about results focused thinking. So this is training that we did.

Lucy Gernon (24:06.824)
Thank you.

Marie (24:07.842)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sandra Grogan (24:27.767)
It was well over a year ago where in a meeting, we are in a coaching session. You had said to us, like, think about the results that you want to achieve in a month, not the tasks. So I am the queen of to-do lists. I have to-do lists about to-do lists, right? So this was completely different for me, but I did it that month and I've never looked back. I have it on a whiteboard here every month. Look at it. Helps you stay focused, helps you prioritize, helps you know what you can say no to.

Marie (24:38.008)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra Grogan (24:55.499)
because if it's not, and that's not not helping other teams, but like you have to get clear on what results you want to achieve. I do it once a quarter for like the big rocks. So you're constantly focusing that helps you be more strategic. So I had this realization a couple of weeks ago that I am kind of achieving more, maybe better results, working less hours for sure. Like, no, no.

Lucy Gernon (25:17.19)
I mean, that is just the dream, right?

Marie (25:17.262)
Hmm.

Sandra Grogan (25:21.175)
Because I used to work late, like to maybe 10 PM one day a week trying to get stuff done and different tasks and have meetings. Don't do that anymore.

Marie (25:25.783)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (25:27.752)
Yeah. So guys, if anyone is listening, you're like, what is this results focused thinking thing? What is the training? It's like when you join 360, you get access to a whole portal of resources as well as all of the live sessions. So that is available for you in there. There's a whole system around how to do this. So just in case anyone's like, what? So like aside from that, then Sandra, I know that you've massively transformed in terms of your productivity, how you're showing up, your confidence, you have more time.

Marie (25:49.781)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (25:55.012)
and I know you're, love tools. both love tools. You're scientists like me. So I have these, these have to be practical. And one of the reasons again, I did everything I did is I don't rehash other people's stuff. create all my own frameworks, all my own tools, because most of them don't address the fundamental, underlying psychological, was going to say issues, not the word, the psychology behind why we don't get feedback, for example.

The reason people don't like conflict is because there's a psychological effect of it. Whereas people in a lot of leadership training, you're, you know, you're taught to give conflict and like, you know, you do the, the, the sandwich, isn't that what they call it? Like with the negative and the two positives, but it's, nobody's addressing the fear behind giving conflict and that's our hunting conflict or how you show it up. So that's why I wanted to create all the tools I did. And they have kind of psychology woven into all of them. And would you say like, cause to me, I think that they're like super effective, like

Marie (26:39.644)
Mm-hmm.

Lucy Gernon (26:53.414)
Is there any tools that you found really, really effective in 360 that you maybe hadn't used before? Any of the frameworks or trainings that we've done? Either one of you.

Marie (27:04.906)
Yeah, I would say maybe the camera model. So I've noticed since we talked about this.

Lucy Gernon (27:10.239)
Mmm.

Marie (27:19.366)
By me going to meetings, sometimes you go to meetings that the size takes, there's a lot of opinions, you get a lot of pushback. If you remain the adult in the room, if you remain neutral and consistent, you're not getting too head up, you're just remaining rational, that's extremely effective. And if you're able to empathize with the other parties that may be impacted that you're talking to.

that empathy piece as well. It's just really about like the psychology of how to go into these meetings that can be quite daunting. And I have just found that so effective. So yeah, that's one tool that's just been, yeah.

Lucy Gernon (28:02.28)
Yeah, great. Here's the conflict monitor model that we have. What about you Sandra?

Marie (28:05.989)
Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Grogan (28:08.563)
The first one that came to mind was the scorecard, the monthly scorecard, because I think it's really good to be able to kind of reflect on all areas of your life and just see you can't address everything, but if there's one area that kind of needs a bit of extra focus and it kind of gives you, forces is the wrong word, but gives you like that time for like reflection because that's where, that's what you have to kind of build in to be able to look back. And then you can also see maybe how far you've come in certain areas, but it's kind of that overall holistic review I find really good.

Lucy Gernon (28:12.173)
yeah.

Lucy Gernon (28:37.097)
Yeah. Amazing. And like, that's the thing with, again, my whole vision. So to hear you this, my heart is so warm because this is like, want this exactly what I wanted. It is all about that 360 degree success. It is all about the holistic. like, know, Sandra, I know you said you did an MBA and obviously MBAs are fantastic. You need them for business acumen and for all of that. But what has 360 given you, Sandra, that the MBA just didn't or couldn't?

Marie (28:44.645)
Yeah.

Sandra Grogan (29:04.363)
Well, the community is one thing for sure, because like Marie Touchness, it's just so helpful to know that there's like a space there where everyone is out to support you. Like everyone wants you to win. It's such a good community. then, you know, the coaching calls, right? Not everything is recorded, but those coaching calls when someone is coming for advice on a certain scenario, like even when I don't have anything, I go to those calls because you'll learn something from others and people just are really open and honest and it's really good.

Marie (29:06.599)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sandra Grogan (29:34.487)
Things like imposter syndrome, like you're not going to get that in an MBA, right? Like that's, you know, kind of showing up. So like that part of it was really good. And I, I'm really glad that I did it, but there are other things like, I don't know, situations in business, some things are different for women in leadership. So there are certain things that are, that are different. There's different tools that are needed to be able to do it that I didn't get, that I needed in order to be able to bring me further.

Lucy Gernon (30:00.458)
Amazing. And now you have the magic combination and you've just renewed your membership as well for another another year. I'm telling you guys this membership is going to cap out soon. I am capping it because I want to keep it intimate. What made you renew again, Sandra, for the this is like your third time, right, to invest in yourself. What made you renew?

Sandra Grogan (30:05.335)
Nothing here!

Marie (30:05.983)
You

Marie (30:13.162)
Yeah.

Sandra Grogan (30:19.927)
Because I'm still getting so much value out of it and I'm learning so much. And I actually took my husband to actually remind me of that because I was hesitating going, another investment. And he was like, but you love it. You get so much out of it. Why would you not? I was like, OK, thank you. Why would I not? Yeah.

Marie (30:38.791)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (30:41.258)
my god, it's the sky.

Sandra Grogan (30:44.407)
But there is there's so much that community is still there There's always stuff like I've never come off a call seen a tool and not found found it of some use you know me like some of them will resonate more than you than others and But yeah, just like learning and finding value out of it consistently

Marie (30:51.104)
Hmm.

Marie (30:57.933)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (30:59.186)
And what advice would you give to anyone who's listening to the show today, who is a podcast listener? Because all of our faves come from the podcast. Let's be real. You're podcast listeners. And I hear so often, like I'm actually genuinely thinking about stopping the podcast to help help women, believe it or not, because so many women tell me they're listening to the podcast for two years. They're they're passively listen, but they don't have they don't they don't take the action. What's different when you're in 360 versus listening to the podcast?

Marie (31:24.535)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra Grogan (31:29.981)
in its accountability and like you will carve out the time. Like that's thing. If you make this investment, you'll carve out the time to make it worth your while. Like you will, and there's more tools. Like we talk about tools and I know you make certain tools available Lucy, but like there's so much more. Like that's only the tip. Like there's so much more when you're in there that's available. And then you learn from other people. Like there's so much value in that. There's people in different industries at different levels and everyone will help.

in different situations. Like we've seen that if someone has a challenge, you go into the community, someone will give them advice to be able to do it. Like that you can't get through a podcast, but that you can get in the community.

Marie (32:03.118)
Yeah, I'd say the same. It's more the accountability piece. when you like Sandra said, if you're going to invest in yourself that heavily, like you are going to want to get the most out of it. And that's a great driver. And I suppose when you start to see the results, when you start actually using the tools and you start seeing the results, you know, that will create a snowball effect as well.

Lucy Gernon (32:08.49)
Absolutely. What about you, Marie? What would you say?

Marie (32:31.156)
You're seeing the benefits in your life, your personal life, professional life. So again, like you're going to use the tools, you're not going to get down to the podcast and you got like it's 24 seven support really like you can always pop a question in, you can, you know, look back through the tools yourself whenever you want, you can do it in your own time. So yeah, no, it's it's it's a it's a great thing to do. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (32:55.06)
Yeah, you guys are amazing. And is it like when you say invest in yourself, do you mean time or money or both?

Marie (33:03.138)
I mean both, because it's both really, like upfront it's the money piece, but then over the course of the membership it's time and I suppose like that I was worried would I have time to do this? I felt like this was gonna take maybe this would take another hour out of my day, but what I've realised is by doing the two of them I get more time back. like that's to me, that to me that was non-negotiable in my life, that time back. I don't want to go back to the way that I was, so.

For me, it's worth every penny, every cent, time-wise and money-wise, because I get so much back.

Lucy Gernon (33:40.402)
Love that. And what about you, Sandra? I'm her money.

Sandra Grogan (33:43.083)
It'd be the same. It's both because you're making like, and I was just after finishing studying, which took like 25 hours extra a week, like studying. And I was like, I've just got tied back. Am I going to do that? And then, yeah, talk through it. But yeah, for the same reasons Marie had said. But we tend to put ourselves last anyways, women do. And put yourself down the list of things and people in your life. So no, it was good investment, but had to work through a bit of that.

Marie (33:50.356)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (34:08.818)
Yeah. And that's part of being 62, right? Because I remember when I, when I made my first investment, like it's so scary. Like for people have no issues investing. It's not money. It's the time paying and other people's vice. Everyone's journey is totally different. But I remember feeling really, really weird because I had a really poor money mindset, like really poor, but it was all about how I viewed myself. And it wasn't that the money wasn't there in some way, like, you know, there's always shares or there's always savings or something. could have, but it felt very alien for me.

Marie (34:09.299)
Mm-hmm.

Marie (34:27.612)
Mm-hmm.

Marie (34:34.888)
Hmm.

Lucy Gernon (34:37.822)
give that much to me because like, like you said, I could go on holidays. I could do something with the house. You can do all of these things. But the magic that I found for me, I don't know about you, but I'd love to hear when I said yes to myself and I invested in myself, something massive shifted in me because I was like, OK, I've just done this. I better make a work with my with my coaches. And then I started to show up differently because even by just making the investment, I

signal to my mind, you know what, you deserve this and you're worthy. And now fast forward five years, like I don't even want to you how much I've spent on myself, like multiple six figures at this stage, because I know the more you learn, the more you earn. And I know that is like true forever more. So what do you think of that? Would you say that you feel like when you made the investment, it did something for you or no?

Marie (35:11.419)
you

Marie (35:30.866)
Yeah, well that's what's for me, like I feel like being 360 helped me get that promotion. So like you were saying, like, you know, there is that return, like I was, could see that immediate return, your salary tire and obviously the time return as well.

That's huge. I suppose that's even more valuable to me, is time return with my family.

Lucy Gernon (35:50.186)
Yeah. Okay. So guys, thank you so much for coming on the show today. That has just been so wonderful too. Amazingly amazing, inspiring, warm women. And a lot of people I think think that in 360, we only have directors and VPs because I cannot talk to every single job title that's in 360. I'd be there for a month if I said head off, blah, blah. But it's so nice to have you two on the show today. You guys are podcast listeners. So you know.

the questions I always ask people and I can't wait to hear your answers. So Marie, I'm going to ask you first. What do success, balance and happiness mean to you?

Marie (36:29.354)
I suppose it means for me being able to do the career that I do but also being able to raise my little family and try to enjoy life at the same time so not too much to ask for. Yeah so I suppose it's all very heavily intertwined for me but yeah that's really it in a nutshell.

Lucy Gernon (36:48.876)
my God, I love it. And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Marie (36:54.661)
I would say that I always remember someone saying to me, nobody ever regrets all the work that they did when they're older, like on their deathbed or something like that. And that always sticks to my mind because sometimes it's very, very easy to get caught up in the day to day, the home drum, the firefighting. And I am so guilty of that. I am so, guilty. And I always try to kind of think, okay, like, is this going to matter in five years time, 10 years time when you're 60, is this going to matter?

Okay, so it just helps kind of put that in perspective a little bit.

Lucy Gernon (37:26.47)
Love that. Love that. And Sandra, what about you? What do success, balance and happiness mean to you?

Sandra Grogan (37:32.055)
So I didn't know you were going to ask this. was, this is harder kind of come up and think of an answer. I think, I think it's about being in alignment with your values. But what I've learned from 360 is like, you have to define what success means to yourself because it's not one size fits all. It means different things to different people, but you have to define it for yourself. And that takes time and reflection. Like, so that's the bit of work. So once you know what you, once you know what your values are,

Lucy Gernon (37:35.678)
Sorry, you should have known.

Marie (37:51.43)
you

Sandra Grogan (38:02.025)
and you know what matters to you professionally and personally, then you can, if you're living in accordance with them, then you're going to be happy. And that's where I happiness goes from when you, comes from, when you're like showing up as yourself. You said that at start Marie, like that's what you want, like to show up as your true self, which leads to authenticity. And that's like, that's really important in leadership role too, obviously, because you know, if you're not being yourself, if you're not being authentic, people can see that, my love. So clarity on your values and alignment to them.

Marie (38:16.433)
Okay.

Sandra Grogan (38:31.925)
That's what I think it is.

Lucy Gernon (38:33.124)
I love that. I would just say that you have that happiness now. Yeah, because you look very happy. And so do you Marie. I'm just so grateful that I get to do this work and I'm so honored that you're on the show. I just know you're going to have inspired so many other women. So if anyone does want to connect or anything, are you guys OK if we put your LinkedIn in the show notes? Yeah, so that's it then.

Marie (38:35.365)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra Grogan (38:37.035)
Yes.

Lucy Gernon (38:56.266)
Thank you all for being on the show. To everyone who is listening today, we will have another episode next week where I'm going to be interviewing a couple of women from our elite level, which is our director and senior directors and also our executive tier as well. So you're going to hear some stories from more senior leaders. And that's one thing just to say I love by 360 is while we have kind of separate groups for certain coaching calls, I'm really into inclusion and shared learning. So.

We all learn together. It's all one big happy family. There's none of this hierarchical crap that you see in some companies. So you won't get that in 360. All right. Thanks, everyone. Until next week, same time, same place. Thank you, girls. Bye for now.

Marie (39:34.6)
Thanks, Lucy.