#199 How 3SIXTY Empowered This Finance Director and Pharma AVP Through Company Restructures, Health Scares & Career Moves

Lucy Gernon (00:00.942)
Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of the 360 Leadership Podcast. I am absolutely thrilled to be joined on this week, is 360's second birthday with two of our 360 Leaders Club members. You're going to hear from two extremely accomplished women in senior leadership who have climbed the ranks in both the financial services industry and also in the pharmaceutical industry, but are also two of the most down to earth kindhearted women I have ever met with like

boss beeps as well at the same time. So I'm so excited for us to dive into this today. So you are going to hear from Danielle, who is an AVP in the bio-pharmaceutical industry with more than 20 years experience in driving transformation, performance improvement. She's really passionate about inclusion and developing talent. She's also the chairperson of a local community services center, and she's been an active member of 360 Leaders Club for over 18 months.

You're also going to hear from Aral Whitty who is a director in financial services with over 17 years of experience driving growth, leading high performing teams and building inclusive cultures. And she's been an active member of 360 for over six months. Aral also went through a health challenge over the last couple of years, which she's going to share about, which led to her becoming the chair of the Liver Ireland Support Network, advocating for better care and awareness of liver disease.

She's known for her energy and empathy, and she's really passionate about meaningful impact at work and beyond. So ladies, you are so welcome to the show. How are you both doing today?

Avril Whitty (01:35.844)
Thank you so much for having us on Lucy.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (01:36.016)
Great, excited.

Lucy Gernon (01:37.934)
Yeah, oh my God, I'm so excited. So I'm going to start with you because I just finished with your story and it just moves something in me. Do you want to just share a little bit about from your perspective, introduce yourself to our listeners from a professional level, but then also tell us a little bit about your personal life and we will take it from there.

Avril Whitty (01:56.196)
Perfectly, so my name is Avril Witty and I'm a director in financial services and have over 17 years experience in that industry started kind of from the ground and more entry level and worked my way up and worked across different teams and currently lead a global team focusing on operations and governance and control. Aside from the title, I am a wife and a mum of two. One is 19 and the other is 11.

So we're at that awkward stage of going into college and waiting on exam results and all of that exciting stuff. You did mention obviously my health journey as well. a lot of over the past 15 or so years, I had an autoimmune liver disease. So that played a part in how I show up, my focus in terms of my drive and obviously how I want to make an impact both in work and outside of work.

Lucy Gernon (02:56.43)
Tell us about that story Avra, you're such an inspiration in terms of the challenges you went through with your health.

Avril Whitty (03:06.98)
So I guess if I start from, just to give you context, I was 24 when I was originally diagnosed with this autoimmune liver disease and it was six months after I got married. So at a stage where you believe you've your whole life in front of you and nothing can stop you and it's all about planning for the future. I was told that I had this autoimmune liver disease that could eventually end up in needing a transplant.

However, they would do everything they could to keep things as smooth. So in my normal stance, I turned around and went, what can you control? Focused on all my work related items, tick the box in terms of doing things that the doctors say, going for additional checkups. And it was very much routine maintenance for about 12 years. And about three years ago, it became very, very clear that

My liver wasn't working at all anymore. I was in liver failure. There was no other options other than to be assessed for a transplant. That was definitely a kind of scary period because you don't know what to expect. I was in my mid thirties literally, you know, again, looking at potentially not being there for, you know, the future with your kids. What did what would your family think?

what was my husband going to go through and not knowing what the outcome is. I was assessed for transplant in April and I was listed in May and I had my transplant in July of 2023.

Lucy Gernon (04:47.415)
Wow.

Lucy Gernon (04:51.116)
Well,

So I'm just going to pause for a sec. Danielle, I think you have a fan on, do you or something? think just somebody has a fan on in the office or something, do you? There's some air conditioning or something.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (05:01.828)
I think it's my laptop itself.

Lucy Gernon (05:05.353)
Is that yeah, because it's just a bit like we can edit it out, but if we could turn it off, it would be better.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (05:11.162)
don't know how to turn a fan off on the laptop itself. Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (05:13.326)
It's on the laptop, is it? Okay, that's fine. Just sometimes people have... It's okay. We can get it. I just wanted to check. So Ali, obviously, cut all of this bit out and please just do individual audio tracks. Just remove any background noise. That'd be great. Okay. Don't worry. All is good. Okay. So Avril, you had just shared with me what you said. So we can start from here. What was that like for you?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (05:18.148)
Okay.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (05:22.266)
Okay.

Lucy Gernon (05:40.462)
being diagnosed, you you said you had to, you just focused on what you could control. You were doing what you need to do. Then you had to have your transplant and all the while you were, you know, you're a mom, you're like married and you were trying to work. So how did that, I mean, it must have been such a huge shock for you to hear, right? Okay, now is the time.

Avril Whitty (05:59.236)
Yeah, it was. It's kind of, particularly when you're hearing kind of the stories from doctors and at the stage where I was listed, I was extremely sick. So jaundice every single day. If you think of The Simpsons, that's kind of how I looked. But I was still working. So I like I worked up until the day I got the phone call. And albeit I was in and out of hospital for kind of that two month period.

kind of every second week, I would say, with some sort of liver infection, to the point where, I guess, a week and half before I got the phone call, I was told by the consultant, I was one bad infection away from not making it. And at that stage, I'm smiling now because I actually can't believe I'm saying it, but at that stage, it just puts everything in perspective. So everything you think where you...

just keep going, it just reassesses it all. And that is extremely hard because everything you think is important goes out the window and it refocuses on what actually matters. And it was the first week I actually went, spoke to my boss at the time, he was so supportive. And I went down to a three day week, the first week and the first week that I did a three day week, I got the phone call.

it was, I believe in the universe, it literally like sign from the universe that said, you took that pause. Now we will, you know, make everything better.

Lucy Gernon (07:36.65)
my goodness. like, so it's pretty much like a near death experience, right? Like, it's like, they say that. So I'd love to know from that perspective, because thankfully I have never been there myself. We all will one day, but you're so lucky that you've had it so early in life that you got to make changes. So if you think about Arvel before your diagnosis and thankfully guys, know, Arvel has had your transplant now, right? And all is, you're doing well and we'll get into all of that.

Avril Whitty (07:41.325)
Absolutely.

Avril Whitty (08:00.684)
all is well, thank God.

Lucy Gernon (08:03.63)
But what's different in your perspective, in particular when it comes to work?

Avril Whitty (08:08.782)
So before I was very much, I need to work the hardest I can to prove something. I don't know what that something was now when I look back, but it was always, I'm a female trying to build a career. had my eldest quite young, so my early twenties, I need to prove that you can do it when things aren't the norm. I needed to prove.

all these crazy things to myself. When something like that happens, it makes you realise you're focusing on the wrong things. You can absolutely excel in work without giving your life and soul, without compromising your health. And that alone is mind blowing. As well for my husband too, there was things that we'd always focus on maybe.

What's next? Our personal goals, our corporate goals, all that aspect of it. It just gives you new context of what actually matters is spending time together. What actually matters is creating memories. Add your value, but in the right areas. And even for my kids, it gave huge perspective for them as well. They're friends, all worrying about different things. And they were like, that's nothing.

we just want mommy home or we just want good news, we want to give mommy a hug, those type of things for a period when they couldn't.

Lucy Gernon (09:45.826)
So I love that about you, know, you're you're you you do really embody you should be a positive psychologist because you really do embody looking at the, you the lessons and the blessings in in everything. And I just I love that about you're such a great energy to be around. And I'm wondering then, like, like you're just I can't even talk because you're just you're such an inspiration and.

Avril Whitty (09:56.782)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (10:09.07)
Obviously, then you joined 360. We were chatting for a while as you were before you went back to work and you had gone through this huge transformation and you were going back to work. So what was the support you were looking for at that point? Why did you join at that point?

Avril Whitty (10:23.086)
So at that point, so before, when I initially spoke to you, Lucy was after following you on social media. Then I found the podcast. I was still in recovery, but I remember us having a conversation at the end of that conversation. went, maybe now is not really the time. And you said, like, absolutely. Now is not the time focus on your recovery. so when I knew that I was actually going to be going back to work full time, I had a choice and I wanted to know.

Did I continue to chance it, hope that my perspective that I found continued, or do I lean on and get the support that I need externally to make sure that that continues and that I find that right balance? And what I love about yourself, Lucy, and also about 360 is the ability to find the balance between your corporate life and work, your family, but also yourself. Like I'm the type of person who

I empty my cup really quickly for others and I don't remember to fill it back up. And that's really what I was looking for. But initially I kind of went in saying it was network and it was all the corporate things that I should be saying. But it was more than that. And I got even more than what I thought I wanted like six months later.

Lucy Gernon (11:47.77)
I love that. And what have you got? Like, what do you think about you? Obviously, you're six months in now and you're about to renew your membership, which is amazing. Just been on the call with the other two girls from the other group and both of them have renewed as well. So like there's something magic in 360 in the air. What's different about... Obviously, you've been through this huge life change and transformation, which that in itself. But what has 360 given you over the past six months that maybe you wouldn't have gotten?

Avril Whitty (11:54.969)
Yes.

Avril Whitty (12:16.644)
So I would say a number of things. So one, the courses are fantastic. So the CPD kind of accredited courses, amazing. I've done different courses outside of 360 and I would say they're on par with not even better. I would say definitely the accountability, not just for your own corporate kind of goals and development, but also to hold yourself accountable for what you want personally, which...

I absolutely needed and there's no way that I would have done that kind of on my own. And I would say the third one is very much the connection in the network. So I went in thinking and expected kind of access to a particular network of inspiring female leaders. You absolutely get that, but you get more than that. I would say it's the equivalent of having.

personal board advisor who but a group of people who just get it.

Lucy Gernon (13:16.43)
And even as you say that, you know, I'm smiling because obviously this was my entire vision and to see it reflected back at me is just amazing. It's a lot of people think, you know, when I'm talking to the podcaster, I'm talking about all of these really accomplished people, which everybody is right. But a lot of people who listen to the show might not resonate because they're looking at you and they're like, oh, my God, she's a director. And Danielle is like, you know, we'll get to you in a second. Like, you know, you're a, you know, an AVP now.

You know, these women I hear all the time, they're so accomplished. Do I belong? Like, I'm going to be going in. I an imposter? Like, these women are all fantastic. What would you say about the type of women who were in 360?

Avril Whitty (13:58.35)
I would say I was absolutely the same and still the same. But they are the biggest group to hype you up, to make you believe in yourself when you don't. And sometimes you might have an idea or a thought that you overthink or you don't think is sufficient or good enough. They would give you different perspectives and give you the confidence to go for it.

Lucy Gernon (14:22.638)
And does it feel corpus or does it feel more real?

Avril Whitty (14:25.442)
No, no, no, no, absolutely more real. You feel it's like a safe environment is the best way I can describe it. I've done different kind of leadership development programs before and it is quite corporate and in those particular development programs, good in its own right, but different. I haven't experienced this type of community previously.

Lucy Gernon (14:51.95)
And what is different? Because that's something I hear a lot like around our tools and our trainings. And obviously I am so practical that I, created 360 because I didn't have the tools. Like I remember doing leadership development programs and yes, absolutely. I knew how to lead others, but I couldn't lead myself. And I think you've got to be able to lead yourself firstly, lead your mind. And like a lot of the tools, you know, obviously I developed all of my own tools. I obviously bring in experts, but

Avril Whitty (15:11.843)
Yep.

Lucy Gernon (15:21.026)
A lot of them are designed to be practical and they're rooted in psychology because a lot of the reason we don't take the action is because we don't have the right mindset. So I'm huge into mindset. Like what would you say that like any of the tools that are spring into your mind as I'm saying that is anything that's been super beneficial that's like, this one is really good or this training was really good.

Avril Whitty (15:39.15)
think the executive presence blueprint was one of the ones that I was really shocked at. was packed with loads of different tools. Some of them I've kind of knew different versions of them, but nothing that you could actually apply. I'm quite logical. I'm kind of operational next on some results driven. So having something that gives me the framework and structure to be able to help deliver on those results is.

so beneficial and I'd say I don't think there was any tool that's been provided in the program that I went not really for me or I can't see that being applied which I think is it's testament Lucy to I guess the amount of work that you put into the tools that you give to the members.

Lucy Gernon (16:28.238)
Oh, thank you. And I'm so glad to hear they're working. That's the most important thing to me. So Danielle, moving on to you just for just for a few minutes, obviously, you know, do you want to just introduce yourself briefly to our listeners as well? And if you want to say anything to Avril, I know she's obviously shared a lot too.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (16:43.396)
Yeah, Avril, thank you so much for sharing your testimony. It's so powerful. those of us who have not had the need to go through such an experience can certainly still draw a lot of inspiration from you. So thank you for being bold enough to share that with all of us. So I'm Danielle Bugle, and I am a leader in operational excellence and performance in the biopharmaceutical industry.

and have over 20 years experience in the industry. And then on the personal side, I'm a mom of two. I have a 20 year old and a 17 year old. So they're getting a little bit older now. And also the daughter of aging parents. So I'm definitely feeling kind of that sandwich generation of needing to care on both sides.

Lucy Gernon (17:37.688)
Hmm. It's funny that you're saying that there's so many moms with two kids and 360. I think there's a few people who have no kids and I think I'm the only one who has like three kids. So if anyone wants a free child, I might give one up. So it's interesting you're both in the kind of same area and affects and stuff too, which is interesting. Some synergies there. So Danielle, you obviously and I have been working together for like around 18 months. I know that you started, we worked together and then

Avril Whitty (17:49.742)
You

Danielle Payeur Buggel (17:50.042)
you

Lucy Gernon (18:05.634)
You know, you took a little break and you've come back because you were transitioning from a company you've been with for a long time. So when you were transitioning from your previous organization, like share a little bit about what made you want support at that point and tell us a little bit about your kind of career path.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (18:23.044)
Yeah, I had been, you know, with the same company for my entire career. And I had been really blessed at that company to have the opportunity to take on, you know, new roles, different roles. I had been recognized for my performance and, really feeling valued. And then there was a restructuring and I found myself out of the job. And so it was literally the

you know, the rug had been pulled out from me. You know, I thought I was on one path and sure enough on another. And so that shook my confidence. And, you know, I will admit I had all sorts of imposter syndrome and, you know, all of those thoughts and feelings. And so that first transition I needed to manage was, you know, really that emotional one of having been laid off.

And, you know, and the emotions that that brought up in me, whether or not they were valid, they were the ones that were coming into my head. Yeah. And so it was that struggle of confidence. It was that struggle of, you know, am I going to be relevant in the workplace, you know, continuing forward? What do I want to do when I had such a variety of experience? Like, where did I want to go?

Lucy Gernon (19:30.006)
always valid.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (19:50.992)
How could I articulate that? And so the motivation for me to initially join 360 was to help me reframe my thinking about what I was capable of, what my experience could really bring in terms of value as well. How could I clearly articulate even in my own head what it was I wanted to do going forward?

And then, you know, after a period of time, thankfully found my next role with my new company. And now I found myself in a situation where I'm learning all new people and having to establish my network and, you know, feeling some hesitancy about jumping right in. And that's when I decided to rejoin 360 to

kind of help, again, reframe my thinking, prepare me for that. And as we said, already kind of be inspired by the strong, capable group of leaders to help.

Lucy Gernon (21:01.998)
And how has 360 supported you so far in your transition?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (21:09.388)
Absolutely, so really it is that those practical tools that are action, you know it's not theory, it's real action oriented tools and encouragement and coaching to help you, you know, have those small wins, know, practice with the first example and reflect and practice again, practice again in a safe space and

you know, to be able to. So for me, that was, you know, the biggest advantage and differentiator that I see with 360 from, you know, just, you know, going online and getting a self help book, right? You know, huge difference for me in that. So reframing my thinking, giving me those practical tools and advice to handle specific situations and being able to, you know,

be interactive with yourself, with the other leaders, as well as some experts that are brought in.

Lucy Gernon (22:15.0)
Hmm. And what kind of situations, like, can you think of a recent situation or a story where maybe you, you, did something that you would never have done six months ago or a year ago?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (22:25.712)
Yeah, well, first of all, the podcast, right? Yes. So, you know, this is, you know, a great opportunity to, you know, advance the goals I had around visibility. But, you know, more to your question. I had been struggling with, I would say, in the workplace, you know, professional conflict.

Lucy Gernon (22:29.678)
Yes, we are supposed to about this.

Avril Whitty (22:30.628)
Thank

Danielle Payeur Buggel (22:55.632)
dealing with confrontation in a professional manner and not internalizing it. And I knew that that was something that I really needed to work on for not only my career advancement, but to be able to sleep at night, right? And not continuing to churn and dwell on these things. So very recently, I had an example where in my new role, I had one of my peers had

Lucy Gernon (23:11.362)
Yeah, more important.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (23:25.264)
had just taken on an initiative or a project that was squarely in my roles and responsibilities. And whereas in the past, I might have either just avoided the confrontation at all and just said, OK, that's fine. It doesn't matter. I might have gone to my manager and said, you deal with it. then I also might have.

you know, kind of overanalyzed and dwelled on making assumptions about her motivations for doing that. And so through the program and the tools and the program and conversation with you, Lucy, you know, helping me prepare to, you know, have the courage to confront the situation, but also the tools to prepare for that conversation, making sure that I...

set up the right environment to have that conversation and then sort of, you know, how to proceed and handle it. And, you know, I'm really thrilled that, you know, yes, I went ahead. I had that conversation. Turns out she was just as confused about roles and responsibilities as I was. you know, came together without needing our manager involved and just really clearly outlined for each other.

where do you lead, where do I lead? And then even more so agreeing to have regular one-on-ones to just continue to stay aligned and support each other. So it was a great...

Lucy Gernon (25:03.214)
And like what would have happened if you didn't do that? Like the old Danielle, right? Might have just allowed it to fester or not to like, what would have been, what could have happened if you didn't address that?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (25:15.182)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it. You know, there's what I'm accountable for, and suddenly somebody else is is working in that space, and so it would have affected my ability to to be effective and to deliver on that value. There would have been further confusion amongst the rest of our peers. You wait a minute, and I thought this was you. But now I see her here. So I mean, it it would have caused even more confusion.

and then confusion for our teams. So I'm really happy that we were able to just confront it early. then having even these small examples of a confrontation sort of gives the confidence to be able to handle the next confrontation, which may be a little more difficult.

Lucy Gernon (26:08.942)
Mm. And I really see you are nodding there. Can you resonate with us?

Avril Whitty (26:11.458)
Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm kind of thinking, Danielle, you handle it really well. Particularly when there's so much change happening that it's easy to let it go. And then all of a sudden, I think the imposter syndrome goes on overdrive because you overthink the scenarios, the motives, the next steps. And then at the end of it all, if you were actually responsible.

if something went wrong, you're the one who's then held accountable, even though you made them made different changes as well. So absolutely can resonate with what you're saying.

Lucy Gernon (26:51.922)
I think a lot of our listeners can. And you know what? I think this is a great example of, guys, again, I love sharing behind the scenes because I bet there's listeners going, I had no idea that. I thought I was the only one. I hear it all the time. So if you're listening, you're absolutely not alone. So Danielle, I've noticed, you know, I've been knowing you a while and I have noticed a huge shift in your confidence. Like, I know you joked about coming on the podcast, but guys.

When I I worked in the corporate world, I remember being asked to go on and do one of these videos for my company. And I was so nervous. I didn't sleep the night before I showed up, went to the camera. They were about to start rolling. I said, can't do it. I left. I couldn't do it. I I could not have done it. So I do understand the difficulty in having that. But I love that. Like you've taken the action today because once you do it once.

And especially that I'm not saying this with me, but because it is a safe space and you know me and we're all we're friends. It is like a nice space to do it. So what does like being on the podcast signify for you in terms of visibility and what it's doing for you internally?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (27:59.28)
Yeah, exactly. had, you know, as I reflected on my career goals and I observed people at the higher executive levels of leadership, visibility is essential. And for me, it wasn't just visibility within the company, but visibility outside the company. You know, people at those executive levels are, you know, public, you know,

public speaking, at conferences, at their publishing articles for publications or on LinkedIn. And while I had visibility within the company, certainly in my prior role, I was lacking that confidence to have the visibility in those external settings. But we know that that is necessary.

And so, you I feared I wouldn't have anything new to say. You know, what I did have to say wouldn't be valuable to contribute. I was also fearing that people might misinterpret what I'm trying to say and then would, you know, judge me accordingly. And I feared that judgment. And for me, you know, through the 360 program, you know, one of the

biggest takeaways for me has been those small wins bring confidence. And so you don't necessarily start by signing up for a podcast or speaking at a medical conference or something like that. You've got to start with something small. And so I started by joining some industry groups and participating in those group events and being able to at least chime in.

Then I went to, you know, the next step was to sign up to co-present at one of these industry group meetings. And then Lucy, your invitation to join the podcast here came in, absolutely terrified me. And that's why I knew I had to say yes. So.

Lucy Gernon (30:13.294)
I loved when you said that because Daniel's email like genuinely I never like to put people under pressure. But guys, would you say I gently challenge you but in a nice way? I hope because I try to challenge you for your good. But at the same time, I never want to push anyone into doing anything they don't want to do. So I was kind of thinking about, you know, reaching out and I when I I didn't hear him do it. I thought you were like, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. So when you said I love what you just said there, you were like.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (30:23.737)
Mm-hmm.

Avril Whitty (30:25.037)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (30:42.67)
It terrifies me. And that's exactly why I have to say yes. And I think that is the best thing, guys, you can take from this podcast is, you know, when you go through fear and when you go through pain, everything you want, all your your your goals, everything, all your manifestations are on the other side of your fear and on the other side of your pain. And most people think when I'm confident, then I'll go on the podcast. When I

Danielle Payeur Buggel (30:47.023)
Mm-hmm.

Lucy Gernon (31:11.438)
have the right way to tell my story or to say this particular thing that I'm working on, then I will do it. No. So we're all about imperfect action in 360 because I have done it myself when I started my business and I can see like the difference in me. If you knew me four years, five years ago versus who you see now, that's just accumulation of consistently pushing myself on my comfort zone, which is why I'm so grateful that you guys allow me to gently push you out your comfort zone as well.

Avril Whitty (31:38.871)
You

Lucy Gernon (31:40.302)
So I'd love to know then, just in terms of, know, there's lots of, you know, you're both very accomplished leaders, right? You've worked your way. Danielle, you've just got promoted as well. We haven't even spoken about that. You were like in your organization for what, four months and you got promoted as well. Like, congratulations. Amazing. So you're both so accomplished in terms of leadership. You could teach leadership, right? What is different about

360 Leaders Club in terms of leadership development. like, if somebody is exploring, like, who would you say it's right for?

Avril Whitty (32:19.268)
Do you want to go first, Danielle?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (32:21.773)
Sure. I would say it for where I've seen it go quite well, it's for people who are ambitious, but they know that something is holding them back from that ambition. They don't may not know how to articulate it. They may not know exactly what that is, but

You know, they want to advance. They want to grow. They want to challenge themselves, but they don't necessarily know how to do it. And, and so I, you know, the tools, the coaching, the experts that are brought in and those very practical, solutions, you know, really give people who are interested and motivated the, the, way to do it.

And then, you know, as we've said, just the group of the fact that it's group coaching instead of just pure one-on-one, you know, gives that opportunity to feel like, you know, these are amazing accomplished women and they're feeling the same thing that I've been feeling. And, you know, and the ability to see and hear their stories, how they've overcome.

you know, certain examples is so inspiring. And then the ability to kind of share my own examples and bring people along in just a very safe and comfortable environment, think is, you know, if someone is looking for, you know, that, I think it's the right program.

Lucy Gernon (34:07.47)
Amazing. And it's funny when you say that I hear all of the time, you know, I'm looking for a coach and I'm not sure if I need one to one coaching. I'm not sure if I need a therapist. I'm not sure if I need, I'm not sure if I need a leadership program. If that sounds like you, that is exactly what 360 is. It's not therapy. I'm not going to say it's therapy. It's not, it's definitely not therapy. But I think that that was, that's literally what I would say. And like in terms of the one-to-one, just one-to-one coaching is super powerful for certain situations. So where you need to go.

Avril Whitty (34:16.92)
You

Danielle Payeur Buggel (34:17.871)
Thank

Lucy Gernon (34:37.026)
super deep on something or you've got like a high level decision to make. But nine times out of 10, the majority of the situations that women leaders deal with, I have seen in my experience coaching, you get far better results in a group. And I'm curious, like, would you see that as well? Do you think that the results are better in a group setting?

Avril Whitty (34:50.19)
Mm.

Avril Whitty (34:56.846)
I'd say yes. And the reason being is I think when you're one to one, you tend to draw on your own experiences. So past solutions to potentially present and future problems. Obviously the coach would guide you through kind of where to get there and then the answer, but in a group situation, you're learning from everybody else's past experiences as well and multiple perspectives. And I think it gives you a broader sense of

what next step to do and what action to take.

Lucy Gernon (35:30.958)
What would you say, Danielle?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (35:33.434)
Yeah, what I'll add to that is I've seen examples in some of our roundtable coaching where you actually get multiple ideas. So someone will come and present a challenge and then you get, you know, kind of multiple perspectives on different ways someone could handle it versus if you had one on one coaching, it might be just one, one opinion on how to tackle that.

And being able to see and experience different people's perspectives allows you to kind of merge all of the stuff that resonates in those solutions and also choose the one that feels the most authentic to yourself in how to solve that challenge. So I like to hearing three or four different perspectives on how somebody could tackle the challenge.

Lucy Gernon (36:15.342)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (36:24.938)
Absolutely. I love that. And for me, like I'm in groups as well. Like I've invested in group in like group coaching and masterminds and things. And for me, the biggest thing I personally get from groups is when I see other women doing incredible things, it shows me what's possible and it shows me, OK, well, if she can do it, hang on. There's no difference between really between us. Why is this person doing this? And then it fuels my ambition to kind of drive forward more. Would you see the same like you get inspired by the other women in the group?

Avril Whitty (36:55.556)
Absolutely. Before I joined 360, I went to one of your retreats, Lucy, and I think after leaving that day, was like, 360 is going to be for me. And I went home and told my husband, told my sisters. I was like, no, it's unbelievable. The women in the room just lift you up. So, yeah, I would absolutely double down on what you said.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (36:57.027)
Absolutely.

Lucy Gernon (37:01.974)
yeah.

Lucy Gernon (37:20.982)
Yeah, amazing. And you're learning, too. So it's a double whammy. So what else I want to ask you? Yeah, I suppose just before we finish up, suppose a lot of the. Did you have reservations about about joining and what reservations were coming up for you and what would you say to somebody who's I love saying this, asking this question, because I have I was saying to the other girls, I'm sometimes thinking about shutting down this podcast because people think that they can do it on their own. And then they come to me like, I've been listening to your podcast for like two years.

And it's been really challenging and now I'm ready. And then sometimes within a month, like they've been promoted or they're like going to the gym and they're doing all these things. What advice would you give to that person?

Avril Whitty (38:03.864)
would say I was that person. It was more the fear of investing in yourself that kind of initially had me on the fence. not, I did listen to the podcast, I did the individual retreat day. They're all really good, but it's all about action and holding yourself accountable and being really clear on your goals and your decisions.

And for me, I'd say if you're at the stage where you're really ready to take action and really ready to invest in yourself, this is what I'd say is take that leap and believe in yourself to be able to get to the goals that you're looking for.

Lucy Gernon (38:45.964)
Hmm. And what about you, Danielle? What was your reservations and what was your like, aha moment of like, I'm just going to do it.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (38:46.98)
Yeah.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (38:52.547)
Yeah. And for me, you know, I just it was around the time that I'd been notified I was being laid off. And so I was about to not have, you know, a paycheck. And so that was a very scary thing to say, you know, I'm going to spend this money, you know, and that's going to dip into, you know, the savings. And so but what I really knew to be true was that if I

you know, you know, the time being unemployed wasn't going to fix my confidence challenges. wasn't, suddenly I wasn't going to become a master of, you know, professional conflict and, you know, by magic. I knew that, you know, I wanted to get back into the working world. I wanted to continue to be, you know, a professional and continue to grow and advance.

And I knew that if I didn't address these underlying challenges and concerns that, okay, maybe I would get a job, but would I really get the type of role that I wanted and would I be the leader that I wanted to be? And I, know, from introspection, it was no. And this became a great opportunity to almost like start fresh and reset. And, you know, I'm going to use that time and I nickname it my sabbatical.

to really put the hard work into myself so that I would be ready for the next role. And for me, it paid off in dividends in terms of being able to find that next role. And then, as you said, being able to, the way that I showed up, allowed me very quickly to take on more accountability and responsibility, which led to.

role being reassessed at a higher level. you know, so for me it paid off.

Lucy Gernon (40:53.838)
I know.

Lucy Gernon (40:59.424)
Amazing. And would you say you've got the return on investment?

Avril Whitty (41:05.443)
Yes.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (41:05.633)
Absolutely.

Lucy Gernon (41:07.298)
Well, that's the most important thing to hear. Amazing. OK, guys, so just before we wrap up, like I could talk to you guys all day. Your energies are just you're quite aligned actually in your energies. I love that you guys should have a conversation afterwards. I think there's loads of synergies. I always ask my guests two questions that you should know if you're a podcast listener. The first one is, Averell, I'll go to you first. So what does success, balance and happiness mean to you?

Avril Whitty (41:35.308)
It's different than I guess every day, but I would say that if I'm fulfilled in terms of my home space, that I have energy to do the things that I love and create memories, and then I'm able to show up as an authentic leader in a work that's appreciated, I'm 100 % successful.

Lucy Gernon (41:54.776)
Fabulous. And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received or with everything you've been through, is there any the best piece of advice you'd give our listeners either?

Avril Whitty (42:03.992)
I've given two really stick to mind, Lucy. So one, I used to always say to myself that I'm not saving lives. So it was always the case of stop stressing. I'm not saving lives. And there was somebody two years ago, I told that to, said, I'm going back to work or a year ago, I'm going back to work. I need to remember I'm not saving lives. And they stopped me in my tracks and said, every decision you're making is choosing to save your life or not.

and it put everything into perspective. And the other one was, my husband actually said it to me, he said the biggest fights that you have are never in the boardroom, it's always outside the boardroom. So just keep that in mind.

Lucy Gernon (42:37.166)
See you.

Lucy Gernon (42:48.083)
I love that. my goodness. Danielle, what about you?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (42:52.419)
Yeah, definitely resonate with all of that, Avril, thank you. For me, of the success balance and happiness, it really is about balance, right? That's the key word that resonates with me most, balance between the personal and the professional. And I like to think about an exercise that you encouraged us to do, around defining your perfect day.

And so for me, you know that perfect day and you know, how do I frame that in my mind and am you know kind of am I living that perfect day? And so for me, you know having having devotions and exercise Family dinner, you know those things from the personal side and then from the professional side

Also with tools you would encourage us on this sort of, know, for this month, what are my top five priorities for this month? And I keep that, you know, like right in my to-do list at the top. And each day I kind of open that back up again. And it's, you know, did I do anything today, you know, or does what's being asked of me align to these top five priorities?

And if it's not, then it gets deprioritized, right? It doesn't mean that I, you know, I sometimes might not do it at all, but it's, you know, okay, well, if I haven't done, you know, something to make forward progress on these top five priorities, then, you know, that's where I need to be spending my time first. And again, you know, some of those, just an example of applying sort of those practical tools to how I create, you know, that balance.

Lucy Gernon (44:08.469)
Yeah!

Lucy Gernon (44:23.778)
That's a good day.

Lucy Gernon (44:34.167)
And would you say you're living your perfect day now more than before?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (44:38.987)
Yes, and being a lot more conscious about it. So, you know, I had some of these elements before, but now it's sort of consciously creating that space for myself each day.

Lucy Gernon (44:51.49)
Amazing, because you deserve it. You absolutely deserve it. And what about the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Danielle Payeur Buggel (44:58.147)
Yeah, so for me it is the imperfect action and small wins that that's really resonated the most with me in terms of, you know, don't don't try to, you know, immediately run that marathon, right? And no, I'm not running marathon. you know, you've got to. That's true. That's true. But it's, you know, OK.

Lucy Gernon (45:16.418)
You never know, Suzanne did in the group. She could inspire you.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (45:24.015)
I want to get better in this space over here. What's one tiny thing that I can do to just practice that? And then, know, I do it and having that reflection and that just gives the evidence for the next time when that challenge is just a little bit bigger and okay, I did it before. can do it in this situation. So that's been really powerful.

Lucy Gernon (45:48.334)
I love it. You are absolutely embodying the tools, both of you. You are walk in the walk. You are an inspiration. And that's the thing I want you all to remember is when you make changes as women, you are inspiring the next generation. You are showing them, guess what? We can rise to the top. We can rise to senior level and we can still have a life. And we don't have to apologize for it. And we don't have to show up with some.

Avril Whitty (45:49.197)
Loves us.

Lucy Gernon (46:12.974)
corporate mask, we can focus on those results, we can deliver like mofos and then we can go and we can go and do our exercise if we want and all of those things. So please don't ever underestimate the power that women in leadership have when we start owning our voices and when we start really showing up as ourselves. So you're both embodying that. So thank you so much for being here today and thank you so much for being such valued members of 360 and I'm looking forward to continuing to support you both over the weeks and months to

Avril Whitty (46:43.086)
Thank you so much for having us.

Danielle Payeur Buggel (46:45.049)
Yeah, thank you Lucy for the opportunity and Avril, great to connect.

Lucy Gernon (46:45.326)
You are welcome. You are welcome. Amazing. Are you guys OK if we put your LinkedIn handles in the show notes if anyone wants to reach out and connect? So if anyone wants to reach out and connect, you'll find the girls on LinkedIn. We'll pop their link in the show notes. They're amazing. They're beautiful. And yeah, look forward to hearing some more stories.

Avril Whitty (46:49.934)
course.

Avril Whitty (46:55.704)
Yeah, of course.

Lucy Gernon (47:05.1)
All right guys, so thank you all for tuning in today. My heart is so full from hearing these stories. I really hope that it has resonated with you. I want you to know that it is possible for you. You do not have to dim your light. You do not have to be anything that you are not. What you do need to do is take imperfect action. And if you are ready to take imperfect action, you can head over to 360LiarsLog.com and you can join the wait list if the doors are not already open. If they are open, I recommend you get your application in.

to join this fantastic community. When you join the community, when you submit your application, we will screen it for suitability. Not everybody who applies is accepted because the women in the group are of a high caliber, but they are also so nice. So please don't think you're not at that caliber. Please submit your application and we will take it from there. Guys, thank you so much again for being here and we'll see you again. Same time, same place. Bye for now.