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#48 How to Be More Real and Inclusive at Work With Stephanie Good
The 360 Leadhership Podcast, Episode 48, 23 November 2022 by Lucy Gernon
Diversity, inclusivity, D&I, equity, equality, justice.
There are so many buzzwords relating to diversity and inclusivity at work. But fundamentally, diversity is about difference. It’s about having a workplace where you see people around you who reflect society. People of all different races, ethnicity, genders, ages, religions, abilities etc.
Diversity does not work without inclusion. They go hand in hand. You can have as much variety as you want in your organisation but you must also ensure inclusivity. This could look like leaders ensuring none of their team are excluded, that they are treated equally, are given fair opportunities and are making sure their voices are heard.
Making small adjustments where needed as a leader is so important to boost morale, respect and appreciation for those who need it. When we are being our true selves, we perform at our best. And one has to feel included in order to be one’s true self.
It all starts with empathy. We are all human. Sometimes the hierarchical aspect of corporations make us forget that our boss is only human too. And as humans it is SO important to be empathetic to one another and to open up when we need help. Everyone has their own personal life and back story.
Somebody may be a parent or a caregiver and they have to get the kids off to school. It could be somebody who’s got a physical disability, who might have to navigate some challenges in their environment, it could be a person of colour, who’s navigating racism in their day to day experiences.
We need to understand and appreciate that, as a result of people’s situations, they could be in a bad mood at work or they could have low energy. The key is to just be aware as much as possible and supportive of people around you.
Making sure you have inclusivity and empathy in the workplace can result in higher employee satisfaction leading to more revenue, less employee turnover and better team morale.
Variety is the spice of life!
The episode at a glance:
[06.45] Practical tips for leaders to create a more inclusive environment
[11:03] The moment Lucy cried and why
[17:14] What employees need to do to make work more inclusive
[21:24] How to be more empathetic and supportive of other people
Wondering how to take control of negative self-talk and work-life balance?
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Okay, so today on the podcast, I have Stephanie Gord who is the people and culture director as PwC PricewaterhouseCoopers. And they wanted to have Stephanie on the podcast today to talk all about diversity and inclusion, because when I was on LinkedIn, Stephanie posts lots of regular tips on diversity & inclusion on her LinkedIn, and some of the tips are just so super simple, but super effective, which is why I wanted to have Stephanie on the show today. So Stephanie, you’re very welcome. How are you?
I’m great. Thanks for having me. So I’m really looking forward to our conversation.
Yeah, me too. Me too. So look, let’s just dive straight into it. Then tell me a little bit I suppose about introduce yourself, who you are and how you got into the whole area of D&I. Great,
well, luckily, you’ve covered all the Professional bit Lucy. So I can start straight into the personal side of it. Because I suppose like a lot of D&I practitioners, you know, I came to the topic through my own kind of lived experience. And so, I was brought up by a mother who was a very strong feminist, which was great. And really kind of gave me that perspective, from a very early age, that identity can kind of impact the ease with which you travel through the world, right? So like, I was raised to understand that as a woman, things would be a little bit more difficult for me, and I’d have to work quite hard. And that really comes across in my D&I work, I’m really passionate about helping other women, helping them to succeed and giving them opportunities where I can, I was really lucky, I think, in my early experience, that I’ve had quite a lot of exposure to diversity from an early age, I think that really helps you if you’re trying to become more inclusive, because it gives you kind of comfort around being around difference. And that’s kind of the essence of what diversity is, it’s being, you know, differences that we all have. I grew up in Cork, which I have to mention as a cork woman, I
think, and you’re wearing your red today and everything
I am absolutely, I hadn’t made that connection, but um, I grew up in Cork, Ireland, I went to multi denominational schools all the way through my education. And think that was really helpful, because from an early age, I was around people who were different. So I kind of recognized straightaway, that, you know, my experience of the world is different from other people’s. And I also had the chance, you know, early on to live in different countries. So I lived in the US for a while in Australia, and lived primarily in Ireland as well, I think that experience kind of gave me even more exposure to different so being in kind of countries where, like, it was just much more racially and ethnically diverse than cork in the 1980s and 90s. And that, you know, reinforced for me, people have different experiences. And also it gave me the experience of being a migrant, which at times was a little bit different, difficult. And then the kind of the last thing I think, which really helped me understand about inclusion. So to that point, I’ve had quite a lot of diversity experience was when I was 11, I was diagnosed with type one diabetes, which is a chronic illness, and many your listeners probably know somebody with diabetes. But that gave me that experience of, you know, everyday being a little bit different from the people around me. And that, you know, my day to day experience, because it takes quite low management to kind of manage the condition, you know, just having that experience of being different from people around me. And having very good schools, he made accommodations and adjustments so that I could manage my diabetes at school. But then in my early 20s, I had an experience with kind of opened my open my eyes of like actually, discrimination is a real thing. And that happens to people all the time. Because I was in my early 20s, I was looking for my first job. And I was very enthusiastic. And I went for an interview for a grad job with a financial services company. And the interview went pretty well. I was sitting there thinking, I think they might offer me this job. And at the end of the interview, the kind of standard question came up, do you have any questions for us? And I didn’t have any questions, but I took the opportunity to be quite open and I said to them, Look, I want to be open with you. I have diabetes. It would mean if I was successful that I need some small adjustments at work, you know, I need to have a bottle of Coke on my desk and maybe need to take a little break here and there. And the interviewer who asked me the question was very open response and said, We don’t want anyone with problems here. That’s a direct quote. And I share that story. And I’ve shared it before, because I think it’s an important reminder for a thought that, you know, discrimination can happen to anybody. And it can be as open as that. And it had quite a big impact on me. And I shared this as well to give people an understanding of like, the long term impact it can have on people when they’re not included. Because I went away from that interview, I obviously didn’t get the job. But I went away thinking, you know, I didn’t realize until this moment that my diabetes was a liability, I need to hide this now. And for the next five plus years at work, I hit it and had quite a bad impact on my health. And, you know, I think we sometimes think of diversity and inclusion, as it’s nice to have, it’s a nice thing to do, it’s, you know, it’s fluffy. But the impacts of people can be fairly significant. So I’m quite open about sharing some of those stories, because I do think it helps us to kind of really understand from the other side of the desk, what it can feel like to not be included, and to be discriminated against. So that is one of the things that kind of drives me and encourages me to kind of do what I can to help make diversity and particularly inclusion practical. And you mentioned my LinkedIn tips. As something that, you know, I try to weekly show simple things, simple actions people can take, because I think people want to be more inclusive, but they really don’t know how to do it. Yeah. And so um, guys,
don’t worry, I will link Stephanie’s LinkedIn in the show notes. So you can go and check out her tips are just so simple. I just love them. So I suppose yeah, like that must have been really, really difficult.
And I’m even thinking back to my own time in people management and people on my team who had disabilities, and I’m kind of reflecting now, as you’re speaking going ‘Yeah, I supported them, what could I have done more?’ You know, I probably could have done more. And I think the reason that I didn’t was because we don’t talk about these things enough. I mean, just hearing your challenge of needing to have a bottle of Coke and just make adjustments in your day. I think some people are afraid to even say that they need something, you know, so what do you say to people who, and it doesn’t even have to be as extreme as a health condition, it can be anything from you’re grieving, or you’ve had a pregnancy loss or something that’s affecting you mentally, isn’t it? Like, what would you say to people around that piece?
So, I think, I think it’s a great example, you know, I think I would talk to people who are people managers with this comment, I’d say ask the question, I think people are nervous about asking, you know, how can I help, they feel like they’re prying. I think there’s a way you can do that. That’s quite simple, and isn’t prying, but just saying, Look, I’m aware that you’ve had a loss, that you know, you have a condition, whatever it might be, what can I do to support you? You know, how is it impacting you at work? Are you open to having a conversation about it, and you can do it in a very soft way that people have the opportunity to say, I actually don’t want to talk about that. That’s fine. And that’s okay. But, you know, I almost guarantee you that if you ask that question to somebody, they will say, yes, I’d love to talk about that. And yes, there are things that you can do to help. And even just to be asked that question is so meaningful, like somebody’s taking the time to kind of acknowledge that your experience of work might, you know, be different, and you might need some help in the moment. So I would say, ask the question, it’s much better to be the person asking them to be the person who has to ask, because like, if if you have to ask as the person with the disability, or the person who’s had the loss, I think that just puts a lot of extra work back on you. And if you’re having a difficult time, you’d really appreciate someone just, you know, asking you the question, instead of you having to put your hand up. Yeah,
no, absolutely. And I think I’m just wondering, your, your, your take on, I suppose leaders in terms of being vulnerable. So the reason I’m saying that is because if you’re a leader, and you have a team, a team member who you know, was going through something, it puts you in a vulnerable position as the leader to have to have a vulnerable conversation with somebody else. And many leaders are not comfortable being vulnerable, because they feel like they have to be strong all of the time. Whereas I really believe actually, the connection and everything is around vulnerability and, you know, Brene Browns work is all around, you know, vulnerability, and it’s all strength. It’s all current courage. It goes hand in hand, right? So what would you say to those leaders? Like what would be your tips to those leaders who find it really hard to have vulnerable conversations, but who know that it’s kind of necessary to support their team and for to have like a more inclusive environment?
Yeah, I think it comes back to kind of psychological safety, you know, how much are you open and willing to share? I think the important thing is for you to know yours for yourself before you get into the conversation. What am I willing to share in this conversation? So to reflect beforehand and tell the handle the individual rights, it’s gonna depend on the circumstance, what you want to share, and you feel comfortable and you trust the person to share. But I think if you as a leader can do that, and show trust by sharing a little bit of yourself, and you can decide how much or how little of that, I think people do really respond to that. Because, you know, as a leader, you’re a role model. And if you can show a little vulnerability, they can show that and the safer ways to do that, you know, you don’t always have to go into a lot of detail, you know, how team members in the past who’ve had mental health conditions, etc. And you know, you don’t necessarily have to share huge amounts of your own kind of experience, but to say, like, I’ve had hard times, or I recognize that, but they can make putting labels on things. And that can be a way to do it. Without feeling like I’m exposing myself too much. I’m going to do it privately. Obviously, I think one to one conversations are obviously the ideal way to have some of those, those chants, you don’t always have to share as much as you think. I think even just to indicate to somebody like I understand I get what you’re going through, I can recognize something common there. I think that’s enough for most people, and to open up and share their own experiences.
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with you, I really couldn’t agree more with you about sharing your own experiences.
Because when you were saying that, I’ve actually never shared this on this podcast before. But when I was starting out my career, I was like, in my 20s, and I suffered really badly with my own mental health, like really badly with depression. And so much so that I was calling in sick because I couldn’t, I physically couldn’t go into work. And I just couldn’t. And I remember my boss, you know, they obviously had to kind of call me in after a while of ringing in sick for different things. But nobody kind of nobody put it together. Like why why if somebody’s bringing in sick guys, there’s something wrong, right? So this my boss, he was a man, actually. And he was lovely. And he called me in and I was so nervous about going into the for this back to work interview. And he asked me, instead of making assumptions, he just asked me, like, he said, Look, first of all, I told him what was going on. I just told him I was depressed. And the first thing he said to me is, you know, I’ve been there, I know how you feel. He told me his story I’m getting emotional also thinking about it. Because it meant so much to me, just to have somebody – I’ve never cried like this before – but to have somebody actually acknowledge that it’s okay to feel how you’re feeling. So I just think it’s really, really important. And now I’m getting upset, because you see, I’m reliving that emotion from the time,
it. And I can see that Lucy when I was sharing my story earlier, even though 20 years ago, I had an interview, and the person said, We don’t want some of the problems here, I still hear myself getting emotional about it. And I think that really shows you, you know, reminds us that we’re all humans, and that even if something happens in the workplace, we’re all impacted by it. And we can be impacted by for a long time. In your example. It’s a great one of positivity of somebody, being a person in the moment. And I think, if we can, sometimes in those conversations, we tend to be I’m the boss, you’re the employee, those labels are kind of so front of mind for us, if we can just put them aside for a moment and just be you know, I’m Lucy, and you’re whoever it is across the table, it isn’t about our relationship, the hierarchy, it’s about us as people absolutely connection there and empathy. I think that’s the key to us, really, of, you know, how do you help people just empathy as a starter?
Yeah, absolutely. Keeping human is so impossible and are so it’s so impossible, where it’s at, but like, it’s so funny, I have no shame, by the way that I cried, because that’s me. And I think that’s something that’s really important as well. I think sometimes, you know, some of the women that I work with in leadership roles, one of the things that comes up, kind of side note is controlling their emotions, and some women gets very frustrated, and they can control to some women like me, kind of find the tears come, but I’ve learned through the years, you know, us, it’s okay to cry, nobody’s died, I’ve owned it, it was actually a nice moment for me to remember that. And I would cry because I was actually happy tears. I’m not going to talk about it again. Cuz, again, I think it’s important, you know, to just own your emotions, as well as a leader if you, you know, you don’t have to be this robot. And I think it’s important to be real business.
Absolutely. And like, you’ll hear that phrase around D&I around bringing your whole self to work. And I think that includes your emotions, right? We’re not robots, you know, we have emotions we have positive, negative, you know, and everything in between. And don’t worry, you’re in very good company. I’m a big crier myself for 18 years and many, you know, work toilets over the years and I’ve kind of learned I think like yourself to just say, look, it is what it is. I’m not going to fight it and if I need to shed a tear or two, I’m going to do that. I’m a person
that absolutely absolutely like I remember I used to go in to my boss and I had such a good relationship with them but I’d go in and my husband is the same actually. He will be like Oh, here come the tears again. And I just got I can’t help it. I mean, husband used to take me he’d be like, you’re putting this on? No, these crocodile tears trying to you know, we were having an argument I would like not, but I used to go into my boss and I’d feel it common. I’m gonna go wash it. So I’d say to him look, I think I’m gonna cry now and he got Okay. As it was Give me a minute. And then I laugh about it afterwards. And I think it kind of takes the pressure or like the second guessing after yourself. Oh my God, what did I do that for him so stupid and all this, it just I just think it’s about kind of owning it and having as a leader, I think it’s okay as well sometimes as well. So we digressed. So I suppose we were talking, like that’s been like so useful. And I hope that the stories that we’re sharing, I know that some of my listeners are going to see themselves in, in the stories that we’re sharing. So in terms of diversity inclusion, like they’re quite fuzzy corporate words, right. And I think some people hear it is like, you know, D&I and it’s this kind of corporate waffle, where it was really if you were to strip it back and kind of demystify D&I and bring it back to the human level. What is it?
Absolutely, there’s a million buzzwords around D&I, you’ll hear all kinds of words, equity, equality, justice, there’s loads of buzzwords, but fundamentally it’s about diversity is about difference. It’s about having a workplace, where you see people around you who kind of reflect society, you know, and you see people of all different kinds of, you know, races, ethnicities, gender, age, etc. So it’s just that multiplicity and variety, and I like variety, actually a little bit more than diversity, because I think variety is kind of a nicer combination that hits my mind. And then inclusion is really about, okay, so if you make your organization more diverse, you know, how do you ensure that people who come in aren’t kind of put in the corner and not included, right, so how are they treated, their opportunities are their voices heard, you know, they have the opportunity to progress to do you know, education and, and to be developed. And I think they’re treated in a way that’s no different from anybody else. So it’s kind of fundamentally, you know, diversity and inclusion is having have variety in your organization, and ensure that people, you know, get, you know, opportunities. And what you’ll often see in organizations, we see as diversity happens kind of down at the bottom levels. So the kind of entry level, you know, you might see more diversity in certain parts of a company like in customer service, you probably see more women, it is probably more male. But as you go further up the organization, you’ll see that sort of peters out. And when you get to the very top of many organizations, the people who are at those levels are very similar. And that’s really fine at the inclusion maybe isn’t there because people aren’t getting up through the levels?
Mm hmm. No, absolutely. And I suppose I just want to ask you, then on inclusion, right? My loyalties, I suppose always lie with the employees, right. So the women I work with, I care about them. However, I do have to kind of side with the corporations a little bit in the sense that I see corporations and you do too, obviously, pumping millions and millions into this, this whole diversity inclusion initiatives, they hire people, you know, just like you to try and do it. But unless the team unless the employees actually embrace it. And in terms of being included, well, actually, you have to be open to being included. And I think sometimes we put too much pressure on organizations and people in your roles to wave a magic wand and fix things. But if employees don’t actually embrace what you’re trying to do, you’re never going to have that inclusive environment. So what would you say to that?
I think that’s I think that’s absolutely true. I think it’s a partnership, right? That the leader of the organization needs to do some things around like processes and systems, right, and leadership. So they definitely have a big role to play. But absolutely, if people don’t embrace this, because inclusion fundamentally, is everyday behaviors, right? How do we treat each other? You know, how do we interact? What kind of things do we do we say and do with our colleagues and teammates? So absolutely, I think the great thing about that, actually, is that we all have power, right? If you think about it like that, you know, if you’re an employee, you have you have in your you know, your means or you can be inclusive, right, you don’t have to wait for your organization to do it. There’s things that you can do every day with your teammates, you know, really, really simple things like learning to pronounce people’s names correctly. Like just really basic stuff, the kind of thing that I post about, you know, every week, just easy things. And I think that’s quite empowering for people to know that, you know, whether your organization is doing a great job on D&I or maybe not so far ahead. You can, you can definitely do some things, just yourself.
Absolutely. So that brings me on to my next question, what would be your top like three to five tips that people can kind of take away today and implement quickly to make their teams and environments a little bit more inclusive and inclusive and diverse, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely.
And so I’m going to focus a little bit on probably more the inclusion side of things because I want them to be kind of things everybody can do. Right? So the first thing I would say is try to think of diversity broadly. Do you think we tend to think about gender that’s the kind of the first thing we go to maybe race and ethnicity, maybe, you know, sexual orientation. But diversity is really broad. And there’s lots of different you know, groups in there that we don’t always think about so kind of frequently. So give you a good example from a posted a little while ago. And it completely knocked me back how popular this post was, by the way. I wrote about single people at work, and how they’re kind of a group that we don’t often think about because I think we have this like stereotype of you’re in your 30s you’re probably married with kids. And but there’s lots of people in organizations now who are in their 30s 40s and beyond who are not in relationships, or they may be in relationships and don’t have kids, like I’m in that group myself, and they do get forgotten about a little bit. So I think the first thing is just to, you know, be aware that there’s, you know, lots of different people who are under that umbrella of diversity, it means lots of different things. And then I would say, you know, understanding that people have different kind of starting points in their day to day. So I did a post a while ago, which was my most popular posts ever, and also knocked me back a little bit by how popular it was. And it was around, I suppose, understanding that, you know, when we get to 9am, right, at the starting point of our day, like lots of people have already been through quite a lot before they get to work. So, you know, I was talking about it from the point of view of diabetes, but equally, it could be somebody who’s, you know, a parent or a caregiver, you know, they have to do the get the kids off, get might get them to school, you know, could be somebody who’s got a physical disability, who might have to kind of navigate some challenges in the built environment, it could be somebody who’s, you know, a person of color, who’s navigating, maybe racism in their day to day kind of experiences. So I think it goes back to empathy of understanding that people around you may have had all these experiences before they even get to the office. And just to appreciate that, as a result of that, you know, they could be in a bad mood, they could have low energy, and to just be kind of, you know, aware and empathetic and supportive of people around you who, you know, are different.
And can I ask us on that one? How would you suggest people do that?
Well, I think if you if you know, somebody around you and your team, for example, you know, you know, has a mental health condition, or, you know, as a parent, I think it’s really, if you can you’re open to doing this, ask them like, what is it like for you at work? What is your experience of work, you know, how can I support you, most people are quite open to having those conversations, and you learn a lot and help you to understand, okay, you know, I didn’t realize I thought about that person. So the next time I organize a meeting, I’m not going to organize it for before 9am, for example, which is like a pet peeve of mine of the pre 9am meetings, really hard for lots of people for loads of different reasons. And it just helps you once you have that awareness to just be more inclusive in your kind of behaviors and practices. And then the last one is around Office housework, which really resonated with my female connections. And this one was really popular, and I had a lot of people say to me, kind of come up to me afterwards and say, you know, thank you for sharing that. And when I say office, housework, it’s kind of, it’s all the activity that happens in a team that really kind of keeps things running really smoothly. But it’s usually not really that well recognized. So it’s things like setting up team meetings, organizing team events, meeting minutes, being on committees, Health and Safety Board, and all those kinds of things that we tend to see women doing disproportionately. So the tip here really is around if you’re allocating that work, like to be really mindful of that. And, you know, rather than asking for volunteers, because anecdotally, I would say women are very inclined to put their hands up and try to do the right thing. But you know, if you have that work to give out, just allocated, be conscious, give it to, you know, a mix of men and women, and at different levels as well. And not to kind of keep drawing on the same people, because you do tend to find that the same people kind of end up doing these kinds of activities, particularly, and I guess, devalue it, right. Because you know, that activity, if we didn’t happen, you know, things would grind a little bit to a halt. And I think it really, really helps make the workplace a better place to be. So you know, if it is going to happen, then let’s make sure that it’s acknowledged and people are recognizing it’s valued.
Absolutely. I really couldn’t agree more. And when you were saying that I was thinking about years ago, I had started a new company. And there was a particular woman who was like, an executive assistant or something. And she was responsible for giving me my login details was something and I asked the my buddy who was kind of bringing me into the company, I said, you know, what does she do? And she said, Oh, she’s just kind of like a glorified secretary. And I remember in that moment, kind of going, Oh, that was nasty. And I think sometimes these administrative roles in particular, like the ones you’ve mentioned, like, I’ve had to learn in my business, as my sister said to me, like I have to do all the work. Now before I hired a team. When I started out, all of a sudden, you know, you go from leadership, when you’re, you know, you’re setting the vision, you’re doing the direction, you have a whole team to do the work for you. And then when I kind of started my business, I had to do everything myself to set appointments to do all this kind of stuff. I learned pretty quick how hard that job is, oh, my God, there is so much in administration. So like, seriously, anyone who’s listened today, if you know somebody who works is And who’s your executive assistant, or who works in your department, please thank them because it is hard. It’s so hard to organize calendars and all those things. I think you’re so right. It’s such a thankless role. But trust me, ladies, you try to do that for a week and you will be running back to your leadership job. Let me tell you
a little bit like payroll, let’s see if it’s all working well, it kind of invisible but when it’s not working, it’s certainly very, very, you know, front of mind, you know, so, yeah, I think that I think those roles are often quite lowly paid as well. So definitely much, you know, they definitely deserve as much tanks as we can give them.
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so this has been amazing Stephanie, like you’ve given us so much goal today. So just to kind of finish up, I always ask my guests, and what was the best piece of advice you’ve ever received? It doesn’t have to be D&I related, just the best piece of advice you’ve ever received.
Great question Lucy. And I. And one thing definitely came to my straightaway, which is when I started consulting about eight and a half years ago, and my boss sat me down and sort of said to me, okay, come from industry. And she said, right, consulting is a little bit different. And I think this is general advice. I think it applies to everybody. She was saying, you know, on a given day, the odds are, you’re not going to have highs and lows, you know, you need to be able to take the highs and you get them and recognize them for what they are, and appreciate and enjoy them. And when you’re having a low just to understand as well, that there will be further highs, right, it’s a roller coaster and your ability to kind of go through that and not be too impacted by the lows. And also to just really appreciate the highs will just make sure that you’re enjoying the job as much as you can. So that definitely has helped me over the years to just keep my perspective of like, this will pass if it’s a tough time. And when it’s a good time to be like, great. I’m having a high right now. Let’s let’s enjoy that and celebration and recognize,
Oh, I love that absolutely could not agree more? And what about a piece of advice that you love to give to people?
That’s a, that’s a really tricky question. I think it’s really just to be open to things. I think, oftentimes, we’re probably the worst people at judging whether we’re going to be good at something or whether we’re going to enjoy something. And I think in my job, I’m very lucky because I’m often thrust into things. And they may not be things I put my hand up for. But I’ve been really surprised over the years, but the things that I’ve enjoyed, and by and large been able to deliver against everything that’s been given to me. So be open, and just embrace things, you know, you really don’t know. And oftentimes, even after you’ve done something, it takes a while to realize the benefits, but guaranteed any difficult time that you have, at some point, you’d be thinking back on it and be grateful for it and you’ve learned something. So yeah, embrace as much as you can.
Oh my god, I absolutely love that. And Stephanie, where can people find you to see all your lovely tips that you share?
So I’m on LinkedIn, come connect with me, follow me on LinkedIn, I post tips on usually on a Tuesday. So usually at 6am. On Tuesday morning, I’m sitting on my breakfast table trying to think of tips for the week. And so I do post every week.I think I’m on week 42/43, something like that. So you can go back to my back catalogue. If you see things of interest. You’ll find that on my profile.
Omg you will have to write a book. Thank you so so much for your time. It’s been so insightful, talking to you. And yeah, I really am so grateful to have you on and I will talk to you again soon.
Thanks so much Lucy.