#184 How to prevent menopause from stalling your senior leadership career progression: strategies to maintain performance, ambition, and leadership impact with Fiona McKay

Lucy Gernon (00:01.295)

My guest on today’s show is a very, very special one. Her name is Fiona McKay. And having had a total abdominal hysterectomy and going into salvage, salvage, surgically induced menopause as a CEO at age 42, Fiona knows firsthand the impact menopause has on women at the top seat in the boardroom. There was nothing on the market to help her to maintain her business and career growth, which she describes as feeling professionally homeless.

 

So she set out a mission to research the tools and strategies women leaders need to keep growing their leadership careers and companies without having to pause because of menopause. She now applies her multi award winning method called No Pause when working with the world’s top C-suite women to ensure they maintain their professional momentum and lead without limits in business and in the boardroom through all stages of menopause. Fiona is well known in this space and I’m so excited to jump into today’s episode.

 

Fiona, you are so welcome to the show. much neater conversation.

 

Fiona McKay (00:59.218)

thank you, Lucy. I’m so excited to be here and like you, really, really excited to get into it, get under the bonnet and start sharing the story, right?

 

Lucy Gernon (01:08.879)

Absolutely. So just before we came on air, Fiona and I were just chatting and I was just saying that in, you know, in my membership 360 leaders club recently, literally last week, this topic of menopause is coming up like more and more and more. literally Fiona was like a magic fairy that landed in my inbox to come on the show. And I’m so excited to get into this conversation. So let’s back up a little. 42, CEO, hysterectomy.

 

Tell us your story.

 

Fiona McKay (01:41.102)

Okay, so I had to go into hospital to have a total abdominal hysterectomy. I knew it was coming. I had a condition called endometrial hyperplasia, and it’s an overthickening of the lining of the womb. And the cells had started to change. So I didn’t have cancer, but it wasn’t going in the right direction, Lucy. So my gynaecologist said, right, the time is right. We’ve got to get this out. I’d had gynae problems all my life. I start my periods at 11. I’d just been challenged in that area. So it was right, right, okay.

 

It’s got to come out. So I prepared really hard physically. I got really fit for surgery. was game fit. Told my non-exec chair and our accountant what was going to be happening. And we’ll come back to what they said about that later, perhaps in the conversation. And I went for surgery and my gynaecologist said, when you come out, you’ll probably be in surgical menopause, but we’ll just see how you go and maybe give you a patch.

 

Okay, so off I went, had the surgery and it was really complicated. It ended up being life-threatening, life-changing surgery. But I came out of it and I healed really well. But I left the person that I was on that operating table. I went into savage, surgically-induced menopause. And, you know, I’ve given interviews to the press. I mean, I had to lie on the kitchen floor with the freezer door open because I was having literally hundreds of hot sweats a day.

 

while trying to do Zoom calls in between. Because the reality of being a female founder and a CEO is that things don’t stop. And yes, you can prepare your team, and yes, you’ve got good support, but there are still big decisions that you have to make, right? That’s the reality of being a female founder CEO. And I just was really, really struggling. On the outside, it looked okay.

 

but underneath I was just slowly psychologically dying. And I’ve always had experts that I’ve brought in to help me be the best in my career. Whatever it may be from technical support, from masterminds that I’ve been in, I’ve always backed myself. And I was looking around, I thought, well, I’ve got a good doctor, can go back to them. I’ve got a good nutritionist, I can really sort my diet out. I’ve got a brilliant PT.

 

Fiona McKay (04:08.088)

but I’m really struggling to be the impactful person that I was pre-surgery. Surely if I’m feeling like this, other CEOs have got to be feeling the same. And to your point, I did feel professionally homeless. There was no one and nothing on the market to help me deal with the effects of menopause and it didn’t show up as symptoms in my career.

 

It didn’t show up as symptoms. Okay, so I started to notice that in negotiations, I wouldn’t quite be as forceful and would accept. Started to see I was accepting not lesser deals, but less favorable terms because it was easier. One. Two, I didn’t push back as hard. Three,

 

Lucy Gernon (04:38.542)

Tell me more about that.

 

Fiona McKay (05:04.651)

I noticed what I now term as my hidden handbrake. Things were pulling me up short in terms of where I was stopping and accepting that stop. And that then was filtering down into the team. I could see them wanting to push further or Fiona says, well, actually, no, we’re okay with that. And…

 

It wasn’t that I was having to run out of the room because I was having a hot flash. It was the reality of not pushing back harder and fundamentally losing my executive edge. That was what was happening to me.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:42.957)

And so what caused that? that like the hormones? it the what tell me like what specifically do you think caused that?

 

Fiona McKay (05:50.912)

It’s an absolute massive crash in estrogen. So for me, I was a very extreme example. Now, most women who go through natural menopause in their natural menopausal years, perimenopause to postmenopause, so that’s early 40s to late 50s, women with a womb will take two types of hormones if they choose to go down the hormone replacement therapy route because

 

Well, there are actually three, but the two most yo-yoing ones are estrogen and progesterone and some testosterone. But for me, because I had all of my reproductive system removed, my brain went into wholesale shock and said, you know, imagine if I’m a car, it’s gone, ooh, where’s the petrol? We’ve got no fuel. Where’s the fuel gone? And that crash in estrogen was affecting my brain.

 

So I did go on hormone replacement therapy, but because of the condition that I’d had, I couldn’t go on the level that I wanted to go on because of the risks of cancer. So it was finding this balance, which took years to perfect. And that was what was stopping me and also the loss of testosterone as well, because that can really affect your brain edge, your ambition and your drive.

 

So those were the hormones that were depleting in me and it was having an effect. But the problem was I was using my old playbook for new times. So I’m in a new time era and needed new tools, but I was using defunct tools that had helped me to be really successful prior to surgery. And I’m using them again and I’m thinking, well, I’m not getting anywhere fast. And that was the real realization that your toolkit was defunct.

 

I needed a new toolkit and if I needed that new toolkit, surely so did other women around the world too.

 

Lucy Gernon (07:50.063)

Wow. Oh my goodness. So I’m naive a little bit when it comes to this, which is great, which means I can get really curious with you. So I’ve shared it with my audience before. Like I am in perimenopause and I do have a patch and I have the progesterone and all of that stuff. And my assumption is that when you find the right dose of this HRT, that everything should be fine in a sense. that’s my, you so.

 

Please debunk that myth and tell me more about that.

 

Fiona McKay (08:20.974)

Well, it’s much more than medical. So the amount of, if you can get your hormones right, you feel better, you sleep better, you are better. But menopause is a natural time of transition in a woman’s life. And I know on your podcast, you talk a lot about family as well and blending the challenges of being successful with family life. And when you’ve had…

 

Children, I’ve not had children, but when you have, talking to clients and friends, family, peers, they all say it’s a natural sort of career crossroads. And menopause is exactly the same. It’s a new chapter in your life. It’s the end of your childbearing years and you’re moving into a new phase. And that naturally pulls up questions about where am I going next? Is this still the right thing for me? Irrespective of getting your hormones in.

 

a strong and stable place because without that, everything else becomes like gargantuan. the reality is you start to question where you are in your life, whether you’re in the right seat, whether you’ve actually fulfilled all of your ambitions, because there’s also this myth that once you get your hormones right, you’ll be back in the seat that you were and you’ll just continue to be happy. And what I found was actually,

 

I felt I had more. I hadn’t unleashed my full potential on the world and I’ve done some good stuff, but I really hadn’t lived and led to my maximum capacity. So I set about doing some research to see if it was my hypothesis was actually showing up in other women’s leadership lives, both sides of the Atlantic, in Europe and also in America.

 

And that opened the door to something really spectacular.

 

Lucy Gernon (10:19.338)

Tell me more. What did you find in your research?

 

Fiona McKay (10:22.188)

Okay, so I’ve got three businesses and one of those businesses is a value creation consultancy. So we work with private equity investors in mid markets and hyper growth founders to help them reach their goal growth milestones and exit their businesses for more. Okay, brilliant. So it was all about growth. we know very much, you we’ve got really good connections with growth entrepreneurs and corporate finance people and everyone really in the pulse of growth.

 

both sides of the Atlantic. So I used that network and I thought, right, okay, can I get to some really senior women to see if my hypothesis actually aligns with what’s showing up in their leadership lives? And I got to speak to women on boards, both executives and non executives, founders, entrepreneurs, the smidgen of female investors because there are only, you know, they’re in short supply as we very well know.

 

But interestingly, over the pond in America, it had a very split identity. So with our contacts in New York, in financial services particularly, those women said, we will happily share, but it to go through our lawyers, it has to be NDA’d, it can never come out in the public domain that I am at that time in my life.

 

Lucy Gernon (11:44.761)

Wow.

 

Fiona McKay (11:47.574)

and equally the same in Los Angeles as well. That was more in the tech and entertainment industry. So this fear of professional penalty of being outed, menopausal and old, you know, can’t get menopausal and you can’t get old, was a really, really valid and a big career risk for those women to participate. And they did. And once we got them on board, they were absolutely brilliant and shared everything.

 

Lucy Gernon (11:58.415)

Mmm.

 

Fiona McKay (12:17.122)

And they were in fact exactly the same. were noticing that they had, you know, they were able to, because of their salaries and incomes, were able to go to really good hormone specialists, but they were noticing that they needed to lead in a different way. And it was, it was a real game of chess. If you moved one piece, there was an effect on the other. And how could they get more of that stability to lead without limits? And

 

As Gen X women, we’ve got to the top, many of us, by being super smart, but outperforming men on the ratio, more often than not, of two to one, raising families, looking after elderly parents as well, that’s starting. And all of this doing more and being more visible is just not sustainable when you go through menopause. It just is not sustainable.

 

Lucy Gernon (13:08.747)

Absolutely, absolutely.

 

Fiona McKay (13:12.246)

So you have to ruthlessly delegate, delete, and bring in a new modus operandi of how you actually lead without limits and what leading without limits means to you because what it meant to you in your 40s might not mean to you in your 50s because you evolved through your leadership career. And they also shared with me that they were getting performance feedback based on perceived personality changes rather than their…

 

Lucy Gernon (13:34.072)

Mmm

 

Fiona McKay (13:42.198)

And honestly, and we don’t bar say we, I’ve done 10 years prior to that, a really significant piece of research on the effect of gender bias feedback on women’s leadership careers. And it showed that women get personality based feedback 91 % of the time versus men 60 % of the time. And we put a menopause lens over it after we’d spoken to the sample of women in the US and in Europe.

 

And that figure doubled again. It’s just like.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:13.345)

Wow. I’m just sitting here wondering, as you’re saying all of that, like this, it’s just so fascinating. And I’m thinking about the unconscious biases that exist in society, right? And they’re there, and they’re there with women, for women as well. It’s not just men, know, men against women. It’s obviously all of us. But I think, personally think when you try to think about like the root cause of all of this gender bias when it comes to women in particular.

 

Fiona McKay (14:28.184)

Sure, yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:40.077)

A lot of the time in my experience from speaking to like lots of different, you know, I get to interview some amazing people on this show as well, is everything goes back to childhood. So I’m thinking about like, you know, women have always been seen as hormonal creatures because let’s face it, we are. But that was always seen as a negative thing and something that you, you know, as a child, you can’t relate to and also as a man you can’t relate to. So I think that there’s a lot of

 

Instead of like the bias that exists, think that’s lot of that is driven by fear because people don’t really understand it. They see women who are hormonal as like subconsciously it’s somebody who’s maybe like you’re fearful of them because they’re hormonal. Like this whole thing about being hormonal. So what’s your opinion on that?

 

Fiona McKay (15:29.144)

Well, nobody likes an unpredictable woman, do they? Society doesn’t like an unpredictable woman. And hormonal shifts do bring around some kinds of unpredictability. No one more so than yourself. You feel that unpredictability, right? And that isn’t acceptable also as well. I I think about my mum and my nana, and they used to talk about, and they used to say this word, the change. And they used to say it like that.

 

Lucy Gernon (15:32.535)

No, because we’re dangerous.

 

Lucy Gernon (15:43.599)

you.

 

Lucy Gernon (15:56.759)

Yeah, I know.

 

Fiona McKay (15:58.444)

the change. It was like, but it was talked about, but it was all, it was always a female conversation. It wasn’t one that was, you know, a family conversation. It was for the women in the family. And we were a pretty open family, to be honest. Things are changing. I think many men that I come across in the workplace are really desperate to support their colleagues.

 

their partners, their wives, their sisters, their daughters, their place in society in terms of being a really good support person and structure. The thing that I see and my team see is they’re so frightened of saying the wrong thing that they end up saying nothing for fear of getting cancelled.

 

Lucy Gernon (16:46.111)

So let’s dig into that a little bit, because I think that would be really useful. How can men support women who are in menopause? So if you were to give us three actionable tips or really practical things that men can just go, OK, if I do these things, I know it’s not as simple as this, but even if I did these three things, I would be doing a good job. Where would we start?

 

Fiona McKay (17:08.27)

First and foremost, educate yourself. So there is so much really fantastic available information in the public domain. Go on Google and type in the list of common menopause symptoms and how it shows up. Number one, so educate yourself. It’s not hard, do a little bit of reading. Number two, where careers are concerned in the workplace, understand that women

 

Lucy Gernon (17:11.023)

Mm-hmm.

 

Fiona McKay (17:37.122)

will continue and want to continue to have careers through menopause and retirement is not the default option. That’s my advice number two, they will continue to want to have careers. And number three is as a person in your own life, what can you do, the small things that would really make the difference. So as a partner, you we’ve talked about the

 

unrelenting and unfair distribution of labour for women taking on more in their professional lives. What could you do to just take from that woman one thing off her deck that day?

 

Lucy Gernon (18:21.593)

And why should they bother? Like what’s the whole what’s in it for me factor? Why should a man even bother trying to help a woman who’s menopausal? If he’s been so used to the woman nurturing him and caring for him, why bother?

 

Fiona McKay (18:34.316)

Okay, so if we look at this from a business perspective, if you want to continue to build companies that have the best outcomes and the best routes to profitability, if we’re gonna take it down to absolute P &L, women bring about on boards better financial returns. Number one. So keeping your women means you’re keeping good financial

 

opportunities in your business, number one. Number two, are you a decent person? Okay, there’s nothing in it for you. Well, there may be. Actually, there may be. If you’re a leader, you are responsible for ensuring that the environment that your people work in is free of roadblocks in order for your teams to be able to flourish, right? Women are living longer, men are living longer.

 

Lucy Gernon (19:30.286)

Yep.

 

Fiona McKay (19:33.166)

We’re all living longer. So menopause is going to be a very natural part of a woman’s leadership progression. And actually getting your head around what that means in terms of really small amendments or large amendments depending on the symptomatic route of that individual woman, because 25 % of women who go through natural menopause have no symptoms. 50 % of women

 

are symptomatic in some way, shape or form. And the remaining 25%, their symptoms are so severe, it affects the rest of their life for the whole of their life. So you’ve got a varying exposure to what menopause is going to be from really quite low to somebody who has potentially a disability going through life. And if you had another person in front of you, male or female,

 

who was, who needed some workplace adaptations. They were brilliant, brilliant people. Why would you not support them? And if you feel that that’s not you, well then maybe you need to go and work in a completely ruthless environment and what you give out in life, you get back.

 

Lucy Gernon (20:39.215)

Hmm.

 

Lucy Gernon (20:47.523)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you said there as well, on the whole, well, your job as a leader is to remove the roadblocks, et cetera. I really think like what’s in it for the men is actually that number one, like you said, the business runs smoother. There’s less conflict. There’s less roadblocks and there’s less heartache because let’s face it, an overwhelmed menopausal hormonal woman is not somebody that you want to mess with. So, but it’s not, let’s be real.

 

Like I had to have a conversation with my husband a few months ago on exactly this thing, which is why I was so curious, like how you would frame it. And what I said to him, and he’s great, like he’s so supportive. I’m so lucky. Like I nearly felt. Ashamed, not ashamed, shame is his wrong word. I felt nearly guilty asking for more support because I literally couldn’t take on the amount I was taking on and I explained to him, I said, listen, you know.

 

Fiona McKay (21:28.91)

Brilliant.

 

Lucy Gernon (21:45.133)

Your girl is going through some stuff here. Obviously, the business has grown as well. And I was still trying to do, like you said, all the things that I did before. Three kids, you know, growing a scaling business, you know, dozens of clients. It is not easy, but yet I continue to try to do it. And what I did was I explained I explained this to him, but I said to him, when you help me more, when you like.

 

Fiona McKay (21:47.117)

Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (22:01.102)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (22:11.437)

I need you to make the school lunches. I need you to take care of the laundry. Like we’re trying to find someone else to come in and help in the house. Again, it’s so hard to get these people. When you do this, it means I will be in better form. It means I won’t be over as loaded. And when I’m not as overloaded, you’re going to get a nicer wife at home. So immediately he was like, OK, no problem. I think it’s the same at work that sometimes women feel a lot of shame about saying

 

Fiona McKay (22:23.01)

Absolutely.

 

Fiona McKay (22:28.002)

for sure.

 

Bye!

 

Lucy Gernon (22:37.901)

You know, like you said before the menopause or before this, this kind of change, they were performed in a different way, but there was a different experience. And final note on this, I saw a reel on Instagram last night or the night before, it cracked me up. And I can’t remember the lady’s name, but she was a comedian. I don’t know if you saw it, but she was talking about like estrogen or estrogen being the, you know, the nurturing hormone and the younger we are, have, it’s up here and we’re like taking care of everybody. And then she was like, and then menopause hits.

 

and it comes down and all of a sudden you’re like, why the hell am I doing all of this? Can somebody else take care? And then, you know, the, estrogen like decreases. And then we realize, hang on a minute. We’ve been shortchanged as women, like severely. And I think that’s the biggest shift I think in menopause is that women begin to wake up and realize, hang on, we actually don’t need to do everything. And I don’t think people like that very much a lot of the time. So.

 

Fiona McKay (23:12.578)

Yep, quite right.

 

Fiona McKay (23:32.504)

Well, they don’t because the systems and structures were built on women’s compliance, right? Let’s be honest, they just are. mean, a colleague of mine said, you his wife is a teacher and she’s going through menopause. And he said, you know, what can I do? You know, to your question, what are the little things that I can do or the big things that would really help her? And I said, put the bins out. Anyway, is that it? Put the bins out. I said, no, it’s a start because it’s these simple things that she has.

 

Lucy Gernon (23:38.421)

Absolutely.

 

Lucy Gernon (23:56.752)

Thank you.

 

Fiona McKay (24:01.45)

naturally just done because you guys are busy and you’re out the door and all that. Start doing the things which you don’t see in your peripheral vision. And all of those small things will give her the space to be able to really feel as though she’s just got some form of control back over her time. because feeling as though, and that disconnect of feeling how your time is just so fractured and you feel that overwhelm, that horrible overwhelm.

 

Lucy Gernon (24:18.991)

Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (24:31.424)

you can’t put into words sometimes and it’s just strip it back, ruthlessly delegate, ruthlessly delete to give yourself the space to be able to navigate in a different way.

 

Lucy Gernon (24:44.623)

Yeah. And I think it’s about, you know, deciding when it comes to the delegation and the deletion, what’s really important in terms of what you’re working towards, right? Like, because I think I have a saying in my business, but my team closed the loop, right? So I have ADHD as well. So I’m dealing with it all. So I have like 50 tabs open at a time. And when I need to really start to lean into delegation in a way more of response.

 

Fiona McKay (24:53.187)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:11.705)

full delegation in terms of full autonomy for decision making. Because I think what happens with women, certainly lot of the women I work with, tend to be, and me too, a little bit control freaky when it comes to business. And when it comes to kids as well, we want to make all the decisions, we want to be involved in everything, but you just can’t. And I think what really sets you free is when you make that empowered decision to go, okay, what are the results here that we’re working towards that are gonna, that’s gonna move the needle in the business, but also at home?

 

Fiona McKay (25:22.78)

yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:41.505)

What’s really important for you? One of my mentors that I’m working with now, Danielle Canty, she was one of the founders of Boss Babe. I don’t know if you know it. Well, she’s talking about like her A tasks, her B tasks and her C tasks. And your A tasks are the things in your business that are the things that are going to move the needle. Is that 20 % in Pareto’s law? Or the things that are like really important. She has like a young kid, he’s like two. And she said for her, like putting him to bed is an A task.

 

But driving him to his activities is a C task. She doesn’t have to drive him to the activities. So when she was kind of saying that, I was looking at what I was personally doing going, what are my A tasks? What are my B tasks? What are my C tasks? And usually it’s the B tasks that actually stop you more so than the C tasks to actually having the time you need to focus on your A tasks, if that makes sense. So I think when it comes to delegation, I think it’s really important that you really challenge yourself on

 

What are the things that I absolutely need to be involved in here that are actually going to make an impact and like drive a result versus me needing to control everything? Because like you said, it’s just not possible for us to do it all.

 

Fiona McKay (26:52.524)

It isn’t, and also as well as a leader taking a really ruthless look at your team, because we can often by almost osmosis because we are completers, we’re, you know, control, you know, we like control, we like to get things over the line, we’re executors, is naturally start picking up some of the loops, closing those loops and gaps.

 

Lucy Gernon (26:58.831)

Mm-hmm.

 

Fiona McKay (27:18.392)

that other members of our team perhaps are not quite joining up themselves. And that takes a massive drain in your leadership effectiveness, space, time to be able to have the energy, the impetus and the focus to execute to your point on those A tasks.

 

Lucy Gernon (27:42.265)

Yeah, absolutely. OK, so let’s move through. I had some questions for you. just want to check. I told you this conversation could go any way, any which way. It’s been so, good. So we were talking at the start about, you know, I was asked me the question about, you know, what was it, Brian? Menopause in the workplace. And immediately Fiona was like, no, no, no, we need to have a different conversation. This is the problem because it’s not about menopause in the workplace.

 

Fiona McKay (27:49.55)

for them.

 

Lucy Gernon (28:09.325)

It’s actually that women in leadership in the workplace need some very, different support. So can you share more about that, Fiola?

 

Fiona McKay (28:16.61)

Yeah, so it’s tough for HR, right? Because typically they’re the ones who own the menopause agenda. So it often falls between HR, wellbeing, D &I, but usually it sits in the people space. And if you are working in a relatively successful business where there is a HR function,

 

Lucy Gernon (28:20.28)

Eugh.

 

Fiona McKay (28:41.57)

They’re looking across the whole of their organisation that could be national, it could be international and saying, okay, we have to provide all we’d like to provide, benefits, tools and solutions for our women going through menopause. So what can we do at scale? And what often gets rolled out at scale are symptoms apps, which can be useful, maybe access to medics, which can be useful if you want to talk about symptoms.

 

But for women leaders who are seeing the non-medical impact of menopause in their businesses, in their boardrooms, in their &As, in their low-balling, not getting as much equity out as they need in deals or transactions, that isn’t something that is facilitated or accommodated. And a lot of aspiring women

 

So C minus two, C minus one, C minus two, right up to the C suite, there is professional penalty for sitting around and saying, by the way, that’s happening to me at the moment. Shouldn’t be, but it is, because the reality is.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:55.983)

How are we to change that?

 

Fiona McKay (29:59.65)

I don’t know how we’re going to change that in the immediate, if you’re an investor backed business, because if you think about it, if you’re a PLC and one of your main investors has the pensions invested for thousands of public, literally hundreds of thousands of public sector workers in your business, and they perceive, because perception and reality, two very different things over menopause, they perceive because you’ve said your menopausal.

 

and therefore you can’t be doing your job properly.

 

Lucy Gernon (30:31.908)

Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (30:32.162)

your share price could drop. And we all know if the share price drops, you might not be the CEO anymore. So there’s that, point number one, really hard commercial calls. And secondly, women leaders don’t always want to sit around in support circles talking about symptoms. There’s massive benefit for that for those who find it beneficial, but for aspiring women leaders and current women leaders,

 

in particularly in C-suite roles, they want to be able to get the tools, the techniques, the conversations, the quality of peer conversation that moves away from that and actually focuses on what comes next. Realizing ambitions, still being on track, but maybe amending the route to be able to achieve all of your life’s big dreams or step away and say, actually I’ve done my bit in C-suite life.

 

Lucy Gernon (31:26.095)

Mmm.

 

Fiona McKay (31:29.514)

I now want to be a female founder. I want to go and raise X amount of million. I want to start my own scale on entrepreneurial business, or I’ve worked in a PLC and I find, I think I might be feeling much more creative and entrepreneurial and I want to go into a startup. So you’ll find that there are many different things that women leaders really want to focus on in terms of their network conversations. And it’s focused on business growth, careers,

 

and how they can still lead and live a good, full, healthy life. We will get more change, I think, more on a retrospective basis. So when women, senior women, have left perhaps those roles and talk back about how they went through and managed that menopause transition, there may be good learnings from that. More entrepreneurial women coming out and speaking about

 

Lucy Gernon (32:05.007)

Hmm.

 

Fiona McKay (32:27.864)

how they’re continuing to grow their careers and companies really helps because fundamentally it’s still their business, they’re at the helm, so it’s their choice whether they choose to disclose or not. But you’ve still got the issue of investor confidence and it comes back to these very old, very outdated views that if you are menopausal, you are less than and less capable of doing what you did before.

 

Lucy Gernon (32:40.431)

Yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (32:52.239)

Hmm. It sounds to me then like the narrative that we need to change is around the going back to the actual statistics. So like you mentioned earlier, we know when there are more women in senior leadership at the top companies make more money. And obviously, there was that huge Harvard study that was done, I think, back in 2016, where they surveyed about a thousand different companies. And they found that when there was more women at the top, companies got a 34 % higher return on equity.

 

So essentially, know that when there is more women at the top, companies make like a third more. So I’m wondering in those data sets, we were to be, if somebody could pull like how many of those women at the top were actually menopausal, then we’d have a really solid argument to go look, the data doesn’t actually show, like it doesn’t show that there’s any impact. In fact, it actually shows menopausal women are powerhouses. So I wonder if that sounds to me,

 

Let’s go back to the data in my head. think that’s the only way. What do you think?

 

Fiona McKay (33:53.198)

I think that the data always, know, having a business case for everything always makes change easier. But there is some data out there which actually does really prove a lot of those points. The average age for a CEO to take tenure is 52.2 years of age, male or female. That’s bang smack in the natural age of menopause.

 

Lucy Gernon (34:16.857)

There you go.

 

Fiona McKay (34:20.332)

So we want more women to be CEOs because we want to create more sustainable worlds. Women are weighted towards ESG. We need to make sure that we are living longer. We are feeding our planet. We are feeding our world. We know that women are weighted towards ESG. We know that having more women on boards brings about better financial returns. So we’re only getting tick, tick, tick, tick, tick in the box here.

 

Lucy Gernon (34:47.497)

So what’s the problem then? What is the problem? There actually is no problem if we think about the unconscious bias.

 

Fiona McKay (34:52.182)

It’s the per se, it’s the unconscious bias and it’s the double penalty. It’s age and it’s menopause. So for men going into 52.2 years of age and maturing as a CEO, yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (35:03.183)

you

 

Lucy Gernon (35:10.147)

Filled with fucks is, you know, the best age.

 

Fiona McKay (35:14.67)

It’s a different transition for them. And I’m not, don’t want to make it the men and you know, men versus women thing. It’s just a different transition for them and it’s a different route. And it’s the double bias that women face. And I saw that and I see that daily. And you say, you’ve just come back from LA. know, age is a real issue for women in the workplace and certainly in their 50s. And therefore the disclosure of age.

 

Lucy Gernon (35:19.651)

Absolutely, absolutely.

 

Fiona McKay (35:43.552)

alongside menopause to be deemed as less than is, you know, for many less visibility in rooms, less opportunity to contribute. And therefore that’s taken as a, you know, a quiet thing. And that’s why the majority of the clients that work personally with me, Fiona McKay, the women who say, well, I don’t want to go through my company career sponsored menopause program.

 

Lucy Gernon (36:10.68)

Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (36:12.194)

I wanna work with you personally, I wanna work with somebody who’s worked in a boardroom and I wanna craft and create my own solution so I can navigate with my own plan through that menopause maze that I’m currently finding. For some it’s very severe, for others it’s more of an amendment because they just do not believe that they would get taken seriously again and therefore choose to have that as a personal investment.

 

in their own career rather than a HR benefit. And it’s really, really interesting how this split comes about.

 

Lucy Gernon (36:49.135)

It’s not, you know, obviously it’s an investment in their career, but like when you invest in yourself, you’re investing in your whole life because obviously I’m sure the tools and the tips that you, know, the strategies that you go through in your program is going to not, it’s going to help them show up as a better leader at home as well. So can you give us a little sneak peek? Give us, I love a good tip or a good tool. If somebody is really resonating with this and you know, we’re

 

We have the brain fog, we have the double standards, we have the half-lashes, we have the, you know, the bias. In the workplace in particular, what are three tips that my audience can take away to implement?

 

Fiona McKay (37:31.576)

So first and foremost, realize that things are different. So if you’re finding that your professional toolkit isn’t working for you anymore, you’re not a failure. You’re not a failure. It’s a new time in your life. my ear pod’s just falling out. Keeping it real and authentic there.

 

Lucy Gernon (37:51.855)

Okay, that’s the show’s all about.

 

Fiona McKay (37:54.51)

You are not a failure. It’s a different time in your life. So please do not really regulate the internal conversation that you’re feeling as though you’ve failed. You’re not. It’s a natural time of transition. And therefore what worked previously might not work now. And that’s okay. Number one. Number two. I would say be, not be cautious and think very clearly.

 

about whether you choose to disclose your menopausal or not. It’s your gift. It might not be right for you. For many women, sharing that amongst colleagues at the boardroom table has been transformative. For others not. And therefore, you need to really think about the environment you’re in and get real about what those consequences for your career could be. I don’t like saying that, but it’s the reality of where we’re at. And then number three, think about

 

reworking your networks. So when I went through Savage Circular Clean and used menopause, I was 42. My colleagues and my peer group were having children. Nobody was going through menopause. And everybody’s menopause journey is different. There’s no one menopause the same, right? So comparing yourself to other women leaders,

 

who appear to be sailing through or have got some kind of, you know, silver bullet that you can’t seem to find can be, you know, really unhelpful. Reworking your network is about thinking, okay, what do I need in this next phase of my career? And what, who do I want to be around for me to be able to contribute to that network and equally get contributions back? So thinking about

 

Lucy Gernon (39:45.231)

the

 

Fiona McKay (39:50.048)

what that’s going to mean in the next stage of your career. And you know what, if you haven’t got that sorted out, it’s absolutely fine. Give yourself the permission and the freedom to actually explore what that means for you in your own time, in your own timeframe, and on your own terms.

 

Lucy Gernon (40:08.079)

Mm, I love that. my God, I love that. I’m just thinking as well. One thing that’s really worked for me on this whole journey is realizing that I deserve to take care of myself first. And I think that’s been huge for me personally, because like you shared earlier about like nutrition and, you know, your P.T. and like I used to think all of that was indulgent, like self indulgent.

 

Why would I? Who am I to have a PT? Who am I to have a nutritionist? Who am I to take time for myself? Because personally, now I was hardcore nurturer, but what I’ve really leaned into and it’s really, really helping is is really doing the inner work on realizing that hang on a minute. I deserve to take care of myself. I deserve to be healthy. And the other thing is, is when it comes to exercise, personally, I’m sharing my tips, guys, because I know you guys ask me this stuff as well. My listeners.

 

Fiona McKay (40:51.95)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lucy Gernon (41:05.975)

I find exercise has been transformative for me. And now I’m in perimenopause because sometimes I notice like, obviously when you’re hormonal or when you’re having brain fog, a lot of the time we’re beating ourselves up for not being who we used to be and not being better, et cetera, et cetera. And we get stuck in this spiral, this low vibrational frequency, which is just going to attract more of that stuff. And personally, I find that since I’ve started regular exercise, like I have, go to the gym three times a week now, and I try to move my body every day.

 

Am I perfect? Absolutely not. I don’t. But the days where I move my body and I exercise, I feel a hundred times better. So I think my biggest tip on this as someone who’s gone through paramenopause now is move your body, take care of yourself and realize that it’s it’s OK to do that.

 

Fiona McKay (41:43.027)

yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (41:54.494)

God, absolutely. And menopause affects every single cell in your body. I didn’t realize that. Every single cell. And one of the things that I’ve just gone through is a bone density scan. Because I went through menopause early, had a hysterectomy, I’m at much higher risk of having fractures and osteoporosis. Anyway, I had the bone density scan, everything is fine. But what I didn’t realize, and…

 

through the course of my own research is getting more muscle mass onto your skeleton actually isn’t just about protecting the bone density. actually, you know, if you fall and fracture your pelvis, because when you have a bone density scan, I thought they would do the whole skeleton, they don’t, they do your pelvis down to just at the top of your knees. If you break your pelvis, you’re at double the risk of

 

serious heart attacks, dementias, strokes, know, all of these things, to your point, that we would have seen as indulgent taking time to look after ourselves. I walk a lot with a weighted vest. So that’s my, if I can’t get to the gym and lift, I walk every day with a really heavy weighted vest on. I don’t sit in it, shouldn’t sit in it, but if I’m going out for a sandwich or I’m nipping out to wherever, and it would take me, you know, I’d choose to do it on foot rather than the car.

 

Lucy Gernon (43:05.806)

I don’t like this.

 

Fiona McKay (43:21.848)

put my weighted vest on and that is putting compound pressure through my skeleton. And you cannot be strong in the boardroom if you don’t have strong bones.

 

Lucy Gernon (43:33.087)

Absolutely, sing it. Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (43:35.862)

You can’t, you know, and all of these things are not fads, they’re not crazed, they’re based in medical evidence. We just need more women to appreciate that all of that time that gets taken up in putting out the bins, running the kids to the appointments, doing all of those small things. That could be 20 minutes of you putting that weighted vest on.

 

Go in for that walk, clearing your head. And whilst you’re at it, you can put your earphones in and do some really fabulous meditation, which I’m banging to. And it’s really changed my life. And before you know it, within 20 minutes, you are a refreshed reset and you believe in yourself again. You believe that you get that belief back and you feel that energy in every cell of your body. Do you jump out of bed and go, hey, I’m brilliant today?

 

Lucy Gernon (44:09.721)

Yeah.

 

Fiona McKay (44:30.826)

No, but you feel better than what you did and you are equipped to set yourself up for success for whatever the next hour or the next day looks like.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:33.039)

Absolutely.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:38.679)

Absolutely. And I think let’s talk about strength training for a second before we finish up, because it’s something that I really want to bust a myth on on this show today around, you know, strength training traditionally was seen to be a male sport. Again, this unconscious bias. And there’s more and more women right now that are, you know, going to the gym and they’re lifting heavy. And I want you to know, guys, no matter what age you are, it is OK to do that. Actually, it is so empowering to get a barbell and be able to lift.

 

Like what was I lifting yesterday? Like 80 kilos or something like I, yeah, I was like, yeah, I feel like an absolute powerhouse. You know what I mean? And then you come out and you’re like, hang on, we can do hard things as women. And one of, had a lady who works with women in menopause come to one of my retreats for my group. And most of the ladies at the retreat had never ever done any form of strength training. I’m talking not even body weight strength training in terms of squats or anything like that.

 

Fiona McKay (45:08.527)

phenomenal.

 

Lucy Gernon (45:35.043)

And she was explaining to me that like she had worked with women. So if you have osteoporosis or osteopenia that actually a 12 week program in the gym can completely reverse osteopenia, osteoporosis, like it literally cures it. You don’t need calcium tablets. You don’t need anything. It’s all about the strength. So why would we not want to do that now? So that’s my message to you guys. Get yourselves to the gym. If that’s too intimidating, go onto YouTube, find a video. You can do body weight squats. You can do

 

Fiona McKay (45:47.88)

yeah.

 

Lucy Gernon (46:05.387)

push-ups on your knees. It doesn’t matter once you’re the weighted vest like Fiona said, it’s about putting weight on your body so you strengthen your bones. So actually you perform better in all areas. So it’s like, it’s a no brainer.

 

Fiona McKay (46:17.908)

One good thing I’d say about a top tip that my GP gave me was be careful of spinach. And I’m like, my God, I’ve always put spinach in my smoothies, you know why? And apparently there’s an oxidization in the spinach that can actually affect calcium absorption, calcium huge for really good strong bones. And my GP actually sent a link, followed up, I mean, I’m based in the UK.

 

Lucy Gernon (46:25.775)

I didn’t spend it on baton and I thought it was good for us!

 

Lucy Gernon (46:38.105)

Bye.

 

Fiona McKay (46:45.826)

with the NHS website, which actually sets that out about being cautious with spinach over the impact that it can have on calcium absorption in postmenopausal women, something I never knew. So I’m now on rocket.

 

Lucy Gernon (46:59.435)

my goodness. my goodness. My mind is blown. Fiona, I honestly, feel like I could, I would literally sit here for about six hours and talk about this stuff with you, but I think I’ve kept you long enough. Thank you so much for this today. I’m gonna, can’t wait to go back and listen to all of your insights. You have an amazing energy. I think your clients are so lucky, whoever is getting to work with you, honestly. There’s two questions. I actually, sorry, I have three questions left, if that’s okay.

 

Fiona McKay (47:02.573)

I know.

 

Fiona McKay (47:13.346)

thank you.

 

Fiona McKay (47:27.159)

Okay.

 

Lucy Gernon (47:28.387)

The first one is leaders are readers. What is one book that you would recommend for my audience based on this topic?

 

Fiona McKay (47:38.062)

Now one book that you would read based on this topic, let…

 

Lucy Gernon (47:42.093)

or not even this topic, one book that was like something that is like your go-to.

 

Fiona McKay (47:47.15)

I think I would probably say, do you know, I haven’t really read that many books that I would really recommend to women over menopause. What I would say is there is a film out at the moment done by Tamsin Fadel, who was a journalist in the States. She did a lot of really good prime time journalistic work and she has put together

 

Lucy Gernon (47:57.071)

Hmm?

 

Fiona McKay (48:15.896)

a film on how to menopause. And I would really recommend if you can get that, you can get the link to it. Come onto my Instagram page and I’ve got a link over onto that and I can signpost. Watch that, it’s got some really fantastic experts that if you’re starting on your menopause journey can take you through everything from busting myths to the history, to the issues of women of different cultures and how menopause affects you.

 

Lucy Gernon (48:27.535)

amazing.

 

Fiona McKay (48:45.026)

That’s a good watch. And in turn, you can read the audio notes to support that as well.

 

Lucy Gernon (48:51.051)

Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much. And then the second question I ask, I’m all about 360 degree success and I’d love to know what does success, balance and happiness mean to you?

 

Fiona McKay (49:03.514)

Choice. Choice. Knowing my own yes and really knowing my own no and being very cool with that.

 

Lucy Gernon (49:14.755)

Fabulous. And then finally, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

 

Fiona McKay (49:20.64)

What people say and what people do are two completely different things. Never confuse the two.

 

Lucy Gernon (49:27.789)

Oof, these are giving me chills. Fiona, thank you so much for being an amazing guest. Where can my audience find you?

 

Fiona McKay (49:33.646)

Thank you. Okay, well that’s a great question. So you can find me at our website, which is www.themennapausemaze.com. You can also find me on socials, on Instagram. My handle is The Menopause Career Coach. And the same on TikTok, The Menopause Career Coach. And on LinkedIn, where we talk about all things business, the boardroom and menopause, you can follow me, Fiona McKay. And that’s where you can find me. Look forward to seeing you there. Thank you, Lucy.

 

Lucy Gernon (50:00.623)

Fantastic guys, will link Fiona’s website in the show notes. Fiona, thank you so much for your time. It’s been amazing.

 

Fiona McKay (50:05.495)

it’s been great. Thank you, Lucy.