#206 The Return-to-Work Gap: What Every Leader Needs to Know About Maternity Leave with Donna Reilly, HR & Wellness Consultant

Lucy Gernon (00:02)

Today on the 360 Leadership podcast, I am joined by the wonderful Dala Reilly, is director of Donna Reilly People and Wellness. Donna is an award winning HR professional, leadership and mental health coach and experience facilitator with over 20 years working across multiple industries. Her mission in her company is to create positive people solutions through impactful well-being programs, coaching and development and HR consultancies. And they help inspire focus on people with all their clients. So today we are going to be digging in.

 

specifically into women returning from maternity leave as it’s not a topic out it’s talked about often enough so I’m delighted to introduce you to Donna today. Donna, how are you?

 

Donna (00:41)

I’m very well. Thank you for that gorgeous introduction. Delighted to hear.

 

Lucy Gernon (00:44)

sure you’re happy.

 

You’re happy-less. So tell us a little bit about you and your company first so our listeners understand.

 

Donna (00:52)

Yeah, sure, perfect. So yeah, we’re Donal Riley People and Wellness. We are five and a half years old. And when I say we, we’ve got a core team of five employees and about 30 associates that work with us on an ad hoc, more regular basis to help us deliver some of our programs. And what we do is really focusing on

 

people’s sustainability for our clients. So we’re all B2B and we work with clients, primarily I’d say SMEs, but also some larger corporates as well across three areas. So we design and deliver wellbeing programs across all areas of wellbeing. We also design and deliver people leader programs, do leadership coaching. And then finally, we do a lot of hate your consultancy, particularly for small businesses who protect maybe.

 

start the business from a pace of passion and now are like, have a team, not just sure what to do. So it’s really when we say people’s sustainability, it’s anything that can make the recruitment, onboarding journey and your time with the organization as positive as possible so that you stay on a sustainable journey. So that’s a bit about the company. And from a personal perspective, given the topic that we’re going to discuss today.

 

which is females returning to the workplace. So I have three kids. So I’ve done this journey three times, three very different experiences, as has my colleague Laura, who works on this program with me. So we’ve six between us and we are very passionate about this area, shaped from our own experience and really just want to make it as best possible experience for the companies that we work.

 

Lucy Gernon (02:26)

Hmm. So let’s let’s just jump right in there into maternity leave. So you mentioned there that obviously your mom as well and you have been through this. So I’d love to understand for see a little bit more about your own experiences. You said you three different types of experiences when you came back after maternity leave. Tell us the best one and then tell us the not so good one.

 

Donna (02:43)

Yeah.

 

well, that’s such an interesting one. Three different experiences. feel that, and I was only thinking about this earlier on today, you nearly forget, like my eldest is nearly 14. was like, I can’t remember that experience. But I do now on reflection. I, interestingly, on my first experience, the whole HR team, I worked in HR and financial services, went through a restructure. So I found out while on my turn to leave that my role was

 

was going to completely shift and change and have to reapply for several roles within the HR team, which was completely daunting. First, maternity leave, hadn’t a clue what I was doing. So I actually on return had no role. I didn’t know what role. They were in the middle of a restructure and I hadn’t got down to my team yet. So I went back and I forget it on the first day with nothing to do. Like I had no role. In fairness, communication was good, but I had no role. So that was really interesting.

 

And the second return to leave was again, I back to a brand new role. So completely different. I found out just before I went my turn to leave that I was coming back to that role. But it was a much more restructured return with a support there throughout, which was brilliant.

 

then the third one, I didn’t go back. But actually, in my most positive experience from the time I announced to the time that I left the organization,

 

Lucy Gernon (03:56)

the ultimate.

 

Donna (04:05)

ironically was my most positive experience and it’s all down to the manager. All down to And you’ll hear me say that probably a lot today. Like the manager fundamentally shapes the return journey for the person who’s returned from leave 100%. And we’ve stats that back that up. We’ve conversations, we’ve experiences. It really is two things, communication and the manager.

 

Lucy Gernon (04:29)

And so I’d love to understand then, like, why should companies care?

 

Donna (04:34)

is a great question. If you think about it right, at its most basic, basic level, you have somebody with experience, with expertise, with knowledge of your structures, your systems, the role, how things are done, and they’re returning. If you think about what you should do for them and the care you should give them, right, so pause there, versus a new hire. So if you look at an induction program, the time and…

 

effort that goes into recruitment. Never mind, let’s get back, step back. Job spec, attraction, recruitment, selection, contracts, onboarding, time, money investment, induction programs. The investment, the time and the attention that’s given to new hires, financially everything versus returners is colossal.

 

it’s not on the same wavelength. But if you think about

 

One is brand new, have no idea of your company, your structure, your systems, your processes, anything. The other does. But yes, in our experience, for the majority of companies, there’s less care time investment given to the people who have all that rich knowledge to bring back with them. I think it’s, some companies in fairness do a great job.

 

Lucy Gernon (05:44)

And why do you think that is?

 

Donna (05:50)

and really, really get it right. They have brilliant programs with coaching, with manager training. Others, I feel there’s two things. It’s either just lack of knowledge that they may know they should, but really don’t know what to do, or they feel they’re doing it because they’ve got some great policies in place. They offer enhancement or interleave or…

 

reduced hours or whatever it is, they can have phenomenal policy. I guess some of them, a fear of what to do or not too sure what to do, the others feel they could be doing it, but aren’t really doing it in the way that’s going to have the impact that you want for the people who are returning. Yeah, so I don’t think anybody doesn’t want to do it. I think it’s lack of awareness or they feel they are from what they’re currently doing.

 

Lucy Gernon (06:31)

Mmm.

 

Yeah. And you’re making me think there, like I think the biggest gap in my experience, what I’ve seen, it’s they’re not thinking about the psychology and the mental state of that woman who’s coming back to work. So they’ve got the programs and the policies. Yeah, we’ll give her all the tactics, but what’s missing is the mindset, the feeling, the reassurance. And the reason I say that is because I had a really bad experience actually.

 

⁓ one of my kids, I’m not going to say which, because I don’t want anyone picking which role I was in or whatever. But one of my children, I was pregnant and I actually went out on, I actually had pre, prenatal depression. So I was having, I was having panic attacks, anxiety. I had to go out of work. actually after I was about six months pregnant and, ⁓ I’ve since actually been diagnosed with ADHD. So I’m wondering, was it just overload? I’d say it probably was.

 

when I look back on it, but I really was not in a good mental health space. But up to that point, I was an unbelievable performer. I was a high performer. I would have run through the wall for the company. You know, I was really was performing at a high level. And then so when I went to out, that was fine. But when I came back, it was a huge deal because I had been out of work for a lot longer than usual. And obviously, you’re feeling vulnerable. You’re feeling unsure. Do you still fit? Will you remember everything?

 

you know, will you still be accepted? You’re you’re feeling all of those things. And I was a people pleaser. And I remember I wanted to go back in a four day week, which I mean, however many years ago wasn’t really, really a done thing. But I just knew I had to. And anyway, got the agreement to use parental leave. So I was kind of happy enough going back. But I’ll never forget. Unbelievable mistake. My manager, let’s say I was due back next week and I was due to be off on the Friday.

 

She rang me the week before I was due to go back to work to say that I couldn’t have the Friday off anymore because I had to come in and do a mandatory corporate training. You know, one of these mandated ones that come down from HQ where it’s tracked at the highest level and everyone’s freaking out over attendance rate. And I said, are you like, is there no other days? Like my childcare day, was absolutely no, you have to be here on this day. Now.

 

I was a nervous wreck. actually got emotional thinking about it because I was very anxious going back after being away for so long. My safety net was known. I didn’t need to be there the first week on the Friday just to ease myself back in. And anyway, I had to go in that day and I will never forget sitting in that training room. There was only me and one other person. And as you know, in corporates, this mandated training, they didn’t get their 100 % participation rate and this training ended up being extended by a month. So there was multiple sessions I could have attended after.

 

And I think the reason I share that is because sometimes the moral of the story is that person was caring way was thinking short term in terms of I need to keep my metrics on top of things. I’ve been told I have to do this, get this person in the full department has to get everyone done. But what you wasn’t considering was the long term impact in terms of my a bit, my willingness to say yes changed how flexible I was changed.

 

And it made me set boundaries a lot more. Whereas had I been given the flexibility and said, listen, well, you’re supposed to do this training, but I have fought for you and I was supposed to have you back. You don’t need to. I’ve stood up for you and you’re coming back next week. I would have bent over. First of all, I have been really happy going back and I would have been bent over backwards for that person forever because it would have meant so much. So I think my experience leaders think

 

way too short term and they’re not thinking about long term. And it’s not even the impact on the person. Yeah, it impacted me, but it actually impacted my performance, my relationship with that person and the ripple effect that went on. So that’s just, I wanted to share my experience because that was just a lesson in what not to do in my opinion.

 

Donna (10:28)

it’s interesting what you said that if they said to you, I’ve bent over backwards, I’ve done this, even if they said, let me go check, let me go check if it has to be that day or if can be another day, that could have been enough to go, OK, you hear me, you understand and you’re going to check like that. That could have been enough. and you know what, for that individual, without knowing them, what we find with the managers quite often is just a pure lack.

 

awareness that ⁓ wow I never thought about that the amount of times we do we do a manager with a problem called fraternity which is all about

 

obviously people return to the workplace but it’s very much focused on the individual but also their manager so we do a manager workshop and it’s so fascinating and we relay this back then it through our coaching with the women or the people because it covers all types of leave in certain clients

 

we relate back to go, it’s not that they don’t care. They actually just don’t always fully know. And when we do that training, the amount of comments of, wow, I didn’t realize. That’s what’s going on. God, I’ll remember that for next time. Or what’s really interesting is they’ve such a fear of saying the wrong thing or offending or getting in trouble with HR or…

 

irritating the individual themselves that sometimes they go, I just do nothing. I just say no. And it’s only when you say, no, no, no, you don’t have to be a GP, a psychologist, a mental health first aid or a coach. You don’t have to know all the HR policies. Just listen. If you can just listen and keep that communication open, find out what’s important with the individual and relay that back to the support that you have from a manager perspective. That’s where we see that dial change and

 

Lucy Gernon (11:50)

to you know, and mmm.

 

Donna (12:15)

It’s interesting the amount of people that we go, now I get it. And then they start thinking about their own family circumstance and go, so that’s how my partner may have felt when they went back to work and they didn’t even think about they were some of the feelings or trepidations or thoughts that they were having, which sometimes are catastrophizing things that may never happen. But it’s when you’re in that situation of preparing for a return, what you’re feeling is so real for you.

 

It has to be listened to, has to be acknowledged. But it’s just interesting when say the managers, a lot of the times, like I’ve never met a manager through all the workshops we’ve done who does not want to support. It’s just, they’re not too sure how to do it.

 

Lucy Gernon (12:55)

So this

 

is what I was going to say. It’s why I love that what you’re what you’re doing in this particular program, because with that particular individual, absolutely was a complete lack of just not even thinking. It wasn’t out of any meanness or anything. It was just wasn’t even considering the impact to the person. You know what mean? So I think I love that you’re bringing a lot of awareness to this. So on. So for today, I’m always thinking about actionable tips. So if somebody is listening here now and they’re a manager and they’re like, my God, if someone come back from a turn to leave next week or.

 

I have this person, what do you recommend? Like what’s your approach? What’s some tips that my listeners can take away?

 

Donna (13:31)

For managers, I fundamentally believe it needs to start the day that they announce that they’re going to be going on leave. So the day they announce they’re pregnant, they’re adopting, they are going on carers leave, whatever it is, that’s the day the support starts. And so say like with our program for for return to you, you’re the females or individuals, it’s predominantly females.

 

They get a coaching session at that time to go, right, you’ve just announced it, how are you feeling? What support do you need before you ramp off? Like, so what support do you need? And then they get a session while they’re off, if they choose to, some of them go, no, don’t want to think about work, don’t want to think about me. But some of them want that session while they’re off, particularly just before they come back to say, actually, how am going to deal with this? This is a safe, confidential coaching space with myself or one of our colleagues.

 

to really discuss those deep fears, anxiousness, trepidations, then they have many coaching sessions they need on return. But for me, what the manager has to start on that first day, has to start the day they announce.

 

Lucy Gernon (14:39)

What

 

should they be doing? Like what’s something practical? If somebody’s listening and somebody says, okay, I’m pregnant. First of all, here’s what’s not to say. What do we not say? Because we’ve all heard it.

 

Donna (14:47)

Yeah.

 

so it’s so funny. We always talk about managers concede as a disaster or

 

opt out period. Right. So again, the one thing the manager shouldn’t do is make it about them or the workload or the projects that won’t get done or the manpower that they need to try and fill. That’s for later. So I think that initial conversation is a genuine congratulations. That’s amazing.

 

And that’s kind of really it. think if they feel that the individual wants to discuss, look, there anything I can do to support you now? Is there anything you need from me? Is there anything that you need me to do in terms of communicating to stakeholders, to peers, whatever it might be. to me, that’s just a congratulations, even though your inner mind could be spiraling in terms of, what are we gonna do? This is the worst news ever. They’re not gonna be around for this. And I have them earmarked for this. And how am gonna?

 

That’s not for that conversation. It’s nearly masking those emotions and taking them away with you. And that’s for you then to discuss with whoever you need to talk to. But for me, that’s just if you’re thinking about the research person who’s given that news to you, they’re going to be slightly nervous potentially. particularly the first time I feel or if it’s, you know, it’s a busy period and I’m walking into my manager to say, hi, I’m actually in six months time, I’m going to be gone for maybe up to a year. That can be nerve wracking. And so I think

 

Put yourself in their shoes and just a huge congratulations and a lily for you and is there anything you need from me from now is enough.

 

Lucy Gernon (16:19)

Yeah.

 

And I think like, I think, again, going back to the mindset of the person, it’s the most vulnerable time in a woman’s life. First of all, you know, when you are pregnant, especially as you said for the first time, you’re so vulnerable. But actually telling your manager you’re pregnant is also a major vulnerable moment because you don’t know how it’s going to be received. I’ve been on the receiving end of shock and then I’ve been under receiving and shocking. my God, what are we going to do without you? And then I’ve been on the receiving end of

 

congratulations. And it was just a wonderful celebrating with me. And like, I think the thing that leaders need to remember is, it’s all about, I think, legacy you want to leave as a leader. You can be the good one who you know, your people will remember as the one who celebrated that beautiful time in your life, which is only normally a handful. If you’re even lucky to have a couple of kids, maybe you don’t if you want them.

 

Or you can be the leader that made you feel absolutely shit in the moment when you shared some good news. So for me, I always think about legacy and what legacy do you want to leave?

 

Donna (17:22)

100 % and I would guarantee that for anybody listening to this who’s had that discussion can 100 % name the person who made that experience positive for them and the person who made it negative if they’ve more than one or if they’ve only one and why like honestly I think anybody that we and we talk about this with managers and talk about the experiences they’ve had and we talk about the individuals and talk about the experience they have

 

Lucy Gernon (17:40)

Hmm.

 

Donna (17:48)

And every single person can name the good experience and why that was good and the not so good experience and why that wasn’t so good. It’s not something you forget. And it’s you’re so right, think of the legacy and ⁓ even in the short term, think of this person returning. And as you said, the boundaries or

 

Lucy Gernon (17:57)

Mmm.

 

Donna (18:08)

experience they’re going to have for the next six months, whatever it might be, and then the experience during the return, it’s to just make it as positive as possible. Because again, it comes back to my point.

 

if that person decided, opted not to return, which a lot of people do. Like, I think there was a stats where 80 % considered not returning. Now they could have or not, but on return, there was something like 49 % who

 

lower level of responsibility in their role or there’s a percentage just don’t return. So if you think about it then, that cost to rehire the skills you’ve lost, the experience you’ve lost. So it just makes so much sense.

 

to think about those conversations and think about that journey for the individual and how you as their manager have such a critical role to keep that positive and keep them engaged.

 

Lucy Gernon (18:47)

Yeah.

 

Absolutely, absolutely. So we’ve touched on obviously what the manager should

 

we’re really hearing here is celebrate with them, make it positive, have your freak

 

behind closed doors. The other part of that before I move on to talking about the woman and how she can maybe prepare is what are your thoughts on managers sharing the confidential news with their manager?

 

So the reason I ask is because I remember telling one of my managers when I was really, really only a few weeks pregnant, and I specifically asked her not to say anything, but she did. And again, that was the same person actually. That broke a lot of trust. Now, as a leader, I understand those hate-tour processes, et cetera. But what do you think we can do

 

Donna (19:40)

So I think for me it comes down to personal values as well. If somebody asked me not to say something, I would do everything I could to keep that commitment to them. Because again, you’re thinking about the journey with that individual, keeping the trust, et cetera. And from a HR background, so if the only time that I’ve seen that work where if you needed to…

 

Absolutely have to save is your first time and we see this a lot with new people leaders Where it could be the first time somebody’s ever had that conversation with them like I’ve no idea what to do If they go to hate door part of parcel of our roles confidentiality So the line manager comes to us and says look I’ve been asked not to say this but I’m really I’m unsure what to do Can I ask your guidance that goes no for that doesn’t go further?

 

And so I think that’s the only time where I’ve seen that the confidentiality has been broken, where it’s with a trusted HR partner because of lack of awareness on what to do from the manager’s part, either inexperience

 

it’s a particularly, there’s a nuance

 

the situation. And I feel that’s okay if it’s for the best interest of the individual, but I don’t feel that.

 

as a manager, if somebody asks me to keep something confidential, that I can go to my colleagues, my peers, my own report line and share that news. And that’s what HR there is for. If you’re unsure, have any questions, that’s our role is to keep things confidential. And yeah, that’s.

 

Lucy Gernon (21:07)

I great advice,

 

so tell her to her. And I’m even thinking like I know what I had to do with one person before, because she was actually so critical. When she asked me to keep her confidential, I actually told her I couldn’t, as in I kind of I brought her on board with me. I was transparent and I said, listen, we have this big thing coming up. It’s head count approval

 

it OK if I tell? Such and such. I would never do this. Explained why. So then at least she knew, because I remember the time when my person told the other person.

 

walking into the room and being congratulated when I was five weeks pregnant, when I wanted to keep it a secret, just it would broke a lot of trust. So I think be transparent or else do as Don has shared and just talk to HR and confidence, which is cool. Or even thinking like companies should probably have some sort of transparency in their their maternity leave policy, like, you know, so at least people are aware, like, you know, if you tell your manager, they may be obliged to disclose it or something, I think would be a good one.

 

Donna (22:01)

You’re right, it’s the same that situation if I’m a new people leader and I say, listen, this is the first time I’ve gone through this. Just like make sure I’m everything right for you. I’m going to challenge you or is that OK? Or this is a particularly complex situation or whatever might be. And if the individual discloses, look, I’m pregnant, but I’m really ill and I’m not too sure. Like if you have to make reasonable accommodations or adjustments that people either can’t potentially.

 

Lucy Gernon (22:28)

Yeah.

 

Donna (22:29)

understand that or know what’s within their control to approve or not. So again, where you can bring the person on the journey with you, but I feel that the news should be contained to as minimal amount of people as possible until that person, the individual is ready to disclose it themselves.

 

Lucy Gernon (22:44)

Yeah,

 

great advice. Love that. OK, so we’ve covered the return to work from the employer perspective. It’s great to hear you have a great program to support people. So if people want to learn more about that, I’ll put Donna’s website in the show notes. So now let’s move on to if I’m a woman and I’m returning from maternity leave. Give us all the all the details on what we should be doing.

 

Donna (23:04)

⁓ like where it starts. Like there’s so many things that can happen. So if you think about it, I could be feeling on edge. I could be feeling a wobble in terms of my identity, my value. Confidence could be knocked. There’s so many things that goes on. equally, none of that could bother me. I could just throw back in. It’s so interesting. We see lots of different variations where…

 

from a coach perspective, are like, no, great, I’m ready to go back, yeah, I’m fine.

 

Lucy Gernon (23:33)

Yeah let me

 

back away from these nappies toilet breaks.

 

Donna (23:36)

Yeah, or

 

I’m actually a little bit indifferent. I know I can do a good job and I’m ready to walk back in and do that. Whereas I would say they’re probably the minority. majority is not that I don’t want to leave much out the latter. The majority would be

 

because what about a lot of what we do is focused on high potential female leaders or high potential female full stop that they really are ambitious and they’re career driven. So that sense of coming back to work.

 

could have a wobble for them or they could start to question their value, their contribution, etc. And I guess

 

things that would back that up. So if you think about it, if before I go on leave, I am absolutely needed, I’m called upon for my expertise, I’m creating value, I’m adding value that’s reinforced daily, it’s visible to me, and then I take a period of leave and then I come back.

 

Absolutely, you could question how can I just step back in and take to step in where I left off and keep that level of value and expertise up there and that can add a lot of pressure for women as well. other thing is that things change like we live in a world of rapid and constant change so the organization will move when we’re not there and although what we can talk about opting in and opting out to communication, you know I opt in to be communicated while I leave.

 

I could be aware of the changes, but it’s very different to be there while the changes are happening. So again, there could be that element of going, I want catch up now, or it be that they’re just coming back to an organization that doesn’t have a lot of structure for returners, okay, and doesn’t really know what they’re doing. So there’s so much going on. What we find is that what that means is some of the female returners feel that need to prove themselves, and that can be tricky, because they don’t need to.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:07)

Yeah.

 

Donna (25:21)

Like if you think about, right, and Laura, who works with me, we talk about this all the time. If you think about the life skills you learn, we’ll talk about return to leave. You’re learning resilience, adaptability, fatigue management, juggling multiple priorities. If you think how rounded you’re coming back after that type of leave, completely different skill sets, not something you’re going to learn on the job.

 

Lucy Gernon (25:33)

All of the kings.

 

Donna (25:46)

We talk about losing the edge, right? That I feel like I’ve lost my edge. You’re like, no, you’ve actually gained so many more edges. Like you are so much more well equipped in terms of resilience and adaptability, working under pressure. Like it’s phenomenal, right? But people just put that negative connotation. I’ve lost the lingo. don’t know how to articulate the conversation anymore. Go easy on yourself is the big thing.

 

Don’t feel like you need to come back 100 miles an hour. You absolutely have the permission to create your own return journey and decide how you reintegrate that. So if you’re struggling, we would always say to people, go back to your value. That’s not gone. What are those course trends you have? What is that value that you add? What’s that value that you bring? That’s not lost. That’s still there. And things like…

 

Listen strategically for the first few weeks. Figure out what’s going on. You don’t need to ask all the questions, but you have two ears that are well tuned into listening. Pick up what’s going on and don’t feel the need to prove yourself. It’s all there already. You just need to remind yourself of all those phenomenal skills that you have and now look at all the extra ones that you’ve added to your toolkit. But I do think that what women absolutely need and again, it’s something that we’re really, really

 

passionate about is that coaching piece. And not a lot of organizations give that. Having access to a confidential safe space to disclose the wobbles, the fears, the anxiety, the tiredness, the juggling, the things, the base goes, my house is a tip. I’m trying to get to work. I’m barely get struggling. having somewhere to vocalize that. That’s not somebody at home.

 

or who’s managing your performance or a colleague is it’s just phenomenal. So for any leader or anybody who has the approval to offer coaching to female returners, I would say it’s going to be the best investment that you can give them because that just gives them that space to offload and not only offload, but to start develop some actions to try and help themselves.

 

that sense of direction, getting them back on the train and just pushing along their pathway.

 

Lucy Gernon (28:09)

Love what you said there about the going easy on yourself. And you mentioned as well the identity. I think that’s the biggest thing is like the identity shift, because you’ve left this high, you know, potentially a high achiever. And then you’re like full on mother mode. And now you’re trying to figure out who am I with both? And like you cannot figure that out in a week or a month. It could take you six months. So I think it is really important that you give yourself grace and remember as well, I think.

 

It’s just a point in time in your in your life. You’ve got a whole career behind you, a whole career after you and you’re not alone. think that’s yeah, I think that’s really important.

 

Donna (28:45)

Can you think, we’re two quick things on that one, right? Can you think of the benefit of having a coach to help you through this? Like, even if it’s an internal coach that could be separated from your current role, and the other party is your 100 % right, what we always say, it’s a chapter. This is just a chapter in your journey. There’s loads that have come before, and there’s loads that will come after us. And it’s just navigating that, but giving yourself permission to navigate it in a way that works for you.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:14)

Yeah, and I think the support is absolutely key because I’m even thinking like, if you’re not lucky enough to have access to a coach, maybe you find a network, you find people who have just come back from maternity leave, you find a group of mommies that you actually talk about how you’re feeling because like I think a lot of it is when we bottle things up and we think we’re the only ones. Like I see it in 360 all the time, we don’t look at returners, but it’s the same principle. Women in community talking about

 

Donna (29:15)

not to fear.

 

Lucy Gernon (29:42)

you know, we’re going to get onto this actually, like mom guilt, juggling it all. We feel like we’re the only ones that are dropping balls. Whereas when you’re in a community with people or you actually talk about it to people who are on the same journey as you, you just feel understood and you won’t put yourself under so much pressure. So if anyone’s listening, you’re not alone. If you’re feeling any way, we’ve all freaking been there and you deserve support for sure. So let’s talk about mom guilt.

 

Where do we begin? This is a big one.

 

Donna (30:07)

Yes.

 

It’s a biggie. And it’s not only mam guilt, it’s work guilt, it’s wife guilt, it’s partner guilt, it’s not having a clean house guilt, not being a good daughter guilt, not being a good friend guilt. It’s all encompassing. So I actually think con mam guilt doesn’t give it the credit for all of the different avenues that the guilt can land on. And this is particularly, this one resonates with me. This is my, my number one.

 

heel would be guilt and I work so hard on it going nope absolutely not I’m not feeling

 

I actually think it’s not a sign that you’re doing something wrong it’s a sign that you care really for me guilt it’s if not that if you didn’t feel you’re just wrong I don’t mean like that but the fact that you’re feeling guilt means that you care that you care about work or you care about

 

your partner, your kids, whatever it might be. So I think to me, take that first of all.

 

Interesting when we talk about guilt and we kind of unpick

 

people say, I feel guilty for not being able to give everything to work or everything to my kids. And then when we start to unpick it and go, where are you spending your time? Like talk to me about this guilt. Ironically, all they’re doing is spending time in work or with their kids. But what they’re not doing is giving any time back to themselves.

 

Lucy Gernon (31:36)

Yes, 100%.

 

Donna (31:39)

And you know, we talk a lot about work-life balance, which I don’t think that balance exists. We do a lot of exercises on work-life balance and we do these workshops and we get people to do this exercise and map out their week, currently as it is. And we say, we give them three different color pencils, back to school mode. We say, one color for when you’re working and another color for you for personal time when you’re not working. But with that, take a third color.

 

And in that personal time, just shade in what colour is just for you. What time is just for you, not for anybody else. Nobody dictating. You’re not dropping people anywhere. You’re not doing shopping for other people. You’re not checking in on parents. You’re not bringing dogs for a walk. Where is the time of your week that’s just for you? And it’s eye opening. But yet the guilt is there. But when you actually sit down and look at it, you’re actually all of your time has been given to the people that you’re feeling guilty about. So it’s so interesting.

 

Lucy Gernon (32:30)

100 %

 

Donna (32:34)

I feel that again, it comes back to that permission and I kind of don’t know if the word permission because, but I’m using it in ourselves. It’s not seeking permission. It’s actually seeking permission from ourselves to design the life that we want to live. I feel that there’s a lot of expectations on us that we should be doing this, but we should be doing that. But it has to start with us. It to start with that blank week and go, actually, where’s the time for me? Because if I don’t invest in myself, nobody’s going to feel the benefit of anything that I do. So where fundamentally put yourself first?

 

Lucy Gernon (32:59)

Congratulations.

 

Donna (33:03)

absolutely put yourself first, right? And I’m talking from a lot of learned experience here. But if you put yourself first and go, right, that’s my box ticked, right? Who else, who else do I want to give my time to? Not else who needs me. Everybody needs you. But where’s your priority? So work may be non-negotiable, contracted hours need to give that. But then where else are you

 

assigning your time based on where you want to stay?

 

be with people that you need to be with as opposed to what you feel you should do. There’s a lot of shards and that’s guilt. I should be. Why am I? They are.

 

Lucy Gernon (33:35)

Yeah. I think

 

it comes just as you’re saying that, like, I think it comes a lot from doing exactly what you said to map out in your week. And I do similar exercise, you like a perfect day and stuff like that as well. But when you actually get what’s happening with guilt is it’s swirling in your head because you’re thinking I should be doing this, I should be doing that. You put it down on paper, like Donna said, you’re quickly going to see what the hell you actually feel guilty about because

 

It’s a swirl of thoughts, but if you actually map it out, I was actually only on a coaching call there with some of my executives in my, in my group. And we were talking about energetic leaks and we were talking about like how I prioritize, which is I have a whiteboard, I have my top five priorities and I have decisions I need to make and have energetic leaks. But one of the ladies was on and she was saying she was finding it so difficult to juggle the workload at her level. And she has sick parents and like I have elderly parents as well.

 

And I asked her, I was like, OK, so on your priorities, is any of that stuff that you’re actually doing for other people on your priority list? She’s like, no. said, and what do you want yourself in terms of your priorities that on your priority list? No. So her top priorities were all work. So therefore, if you don’t actually give yourself credit for the fact that you are bringing the kids to their activities, you are checking in on your parents, you are doing these things, of course you’re going to feel guilty. So I think it’s really important that you like

 

I was even just saying they’re literally only off the call about thinking about you’ve got 100 % energy to give, right? For your priorities to everybody. If you were to sit back and map out how much of that time do I actually want to give to work? How much of that is a 20 %? Is it 80 % work? Is it 20, is a 10 % family? It doesn’t matter what it is. And then you can just do the maths and actually say, right, and actually map out your time. Because I think so often, like I know for me,

 

I have this thing in my head once I spend at least 10 to 15 minutes a day quality time with all of my children, which is not a lot of time, but sometimes that’s all I have. Other days it’s much longer, which might be a conversation at bedtime where I have no phone and I make an eye contact or I’m reading that bedtime story and I’m giving an extra hug and I’m doing it with intention.

 

That to me alleviates my guilt because I have set out to. That makes me feel like I’m giving because you cannot be with everybody. You can’t be all things to all people, right?

 

Donna (35:59)

It’s so interesting when I’m listening to you chatting, there’s a couple of things that comparison is a thief of joy, right? So we would live in a world of social media where we see, oh, they brought their kids to Emerald Park four times a summer. haven’t. Are they doing this? Are they making such good use of the midterm? And I’m not. And here I am sitting on my desk working. Stop, stop, stop, stop. You see five percent of that person’s world maximum through a screen. You’ve no idea of the 95 percent going on the background. Right. So I think

 

Don’t compare, turn that energy inwards. I love that you’re talking about energy. Turn that inwards. Give that attention back to yourself, not to look at what others do and what you should be doing. What do you actually want to do? Where? I love the fact that you’re talking about percentages, but it has to start and end with you. Has to. And the other thing we kind of touched on the last time was guilt loves to thrive in silence. If we keep it here, it will catastrophize, multiply, multiply, multiply, Having that network or group

 

to be able to discuss it with is gold dust. Like we do a kind of facilitated discussion for returners and returnity. And when once one person goes, I’m knackered. And someone goes, my God, I’m really struggling with this. And then you go, so much better now. Not that you’re feeling that way, but just that I’m not the only one. So there’s something about, back to what you said, you’re not alone. To talk about it to like-minded people who are experiencing that. Not only assurance, but your

 

also probably going to get a lot of suggestions and tips as well. You’ve never thought about that? That’s amazing. So I do feel with guilt, trying to, has to start and end with you. You have to be yourself first and you have to focus on what you need and what, who in your life needs you the most and who you want to give to. Okay. Cause everyone will take us, right? It’s one priority.

 

Lucy Gernon (37:43)

Yeah. 100 percent. I think as

 

well, like I read a thing last week, I think it was that women who work, obviously, see us as role models. I don’t want my kids sitting at home in aprons baking cakes all day. Like if they want to, absolutely they can, but they don’t have to. And I read a study that said that it’s women who actually are leaders, I think with women who are leaders who have younger kids.

 

they will actually go on to be leaders as well in terms of like working mothers is what I’m trying to say. Working mothers produce high achievers whereas at home mommy’s not that there’s nothing wrong with it. This study particularly said that it didn’t. So it’s just something to note that I read the other day.

 

Donna (38:27)

I think at the end of the day, we all just want our kids to be happy. And I do feel though, and there’s loads of guilt that I’m working, I’m not at the school gate every day, but I’m sure equally that the moms that are at the school gate, they have their own guilt. So I just feel like, don’t look outwards, look inwards. Do whatever works for you. it’s…

 

Lucy Gernon (38:29)

Yeah.

 

We kill each other. We kill ourselves, don’t we?

 

Yes.

 

Donna (38:49)

It’s tricky. It is really, tricky. And I think, I said to that guilt, one just can’t say something that I struggle with. And I just try to go stop. It’s what’s the reality. Bye bye.

 

Lucy Gernon (38:57)

Yeah, 100 percent. And like you mentioned, balance as well.

 

Like, and I think, you know, I talk about balance a bit as well, but I think about very differently. For me, balance is not about hours worked versus hours spent with with family or yourself. For me, balance is a feeling. So you mentioned that earlier on as well. You know, you’re out of balance if you’re if you’re not feeling good. Right. And then it’s just about tuning into yourself and being like, right, what doesn’t feel good right now?

 

A lot of the time you’re out of balance, not because you’re not given to everybody else. It’s because you’re out of balance because you haven’t given to yourself. So I think balance is just work life balance is absolutely possible, but it doesn’t. It’s your definition of what that means. It doesn’t have to be 40 hours, 10 hours. It’s about, you know, like I was away with my kids there. You might have it all over Instagram. Well, not all over. I did like one post on Instagram. We were away on kids, but there was loads of stuff going on in my business at the same time. I was on Slack for about three hours. It was loads of tech issues.

 

I didn’t post that on social media, but I was kind of working while I was away with my kids and I did not feel guilty about it because I made sure that when I was with them we were having fun and when I was in work, doing work mode, I had to go in work mode and I just think it’s…

 

Donna (40:07)

it is finding what works for you and similarly we’ve just come back after three weeks and this is our third year to do this and I’ve done it differently every year. The first week I worked for the week and took a couple of weeks off, didn’t really work because I came back to a load of unknown, didn’t help me, my sense of balance, my sense of anything and then

 

The last year I kind said, no, I’m going to take all the time off. And then I was kind of hiding behind trees, voicing out the team, hoping nobody saw me. So there was no boundaries there. And it wasn’t the only person that was left. I felt that was me. So this year, similar to you, I said, I’m going to do it different. I’m actually going to be online twice a week each week. Now I said I was going to do no online one week. So I kind of missed it around. So four times I was online in three weeks.

 

And I, the kids are asleep, got up early, went online, got proper into work mode, did a couple of hours work. And it was the best. It was the best balance that I’ve had of the three different times that I’ve tried it. I came back to clean-ish inbox, knew what I was facing into. The kids were not impacted because they were in bed. My husband was off on a run or doing his own thing, but it was the best way for me in terms of balance.

 

But that took me three years and lots of time to figure it out. And that’s OK. And it’s not that I got it wrong the other two years. It just didn’t work for me. So again, it’s so individual. I would have always been a person going, you can’t work on holidays. That’s how you get in downtime. I was allergic to the thought of bringing a laptop on a holiday. Now I still am, but that was three weeks. So there was no way that this is going to happen.

 

Lucy Gernon (41:24)

Yeah, to figure it out.

 

Yeah.

 

And you’re a business owner. think it’s different as well when you’re a

 

business owner. Like I think leaders in companies, I think, should not be bringing their laptop or logging on if they do it right. But I think as business owners, it’s a little bit different because it’s yours, right? That’s it, going back to everything we’re saying. So, oh my goodness, Donna, I could talk to you all day about this, but I do, I am conscious of the time and I know we have to let you go.

 

Donna (41:55)

Thank

 

And then we just balance. Balance is individual. It’s whatever.

 

Lucy Gernon (42:11)

So we’ve covered everything in terms of maternity. Everybody, you know, if you want anything maternity related, I popped on as details in the show notes. So Donna, I always ask my guests two questions. I hope my team briefed you. I’m sure they did. ⁓ One is what is the best piece of advice or one of the best pieces of advice you’ve ever received?

 

Donna (42:25)

I’m a…

 

Do you know I really had to think about this one. And I was like, I don’t think I’ve got any advice. And of course I’ve got advice. It was one of those ones that, true me for a minute. And I was looking for something really inspiring, but I actually think the best piece of advice I’ve ever been given is you can’t be all things to all people. I’m a yes person and my husband always goes out and he’s like, stop saying yes. Why are you saying yes? And I’ve learned that.

 

I can’t, if I allow myself to be yes and be all things all people, they’ll be delighted, but I’m running on empty. So what I’ve had to do over the last couple of years is to test the theory of what am I sacrificing by saying yes here? What am I sacrificing personally by being all things to all people? What would a no feel like?

 

How would that feel? How would that go down? And slowly try to remove myself from being all things to everybody. But the other thing was going, who do I actually want to be all things to? Who are those people that it’s a hundred percent yes and it’s a no brainer because that’s my core circle. So to me, that’s probably the best piece of advice for two reasons, because it’s made me.

 

stop and think if I say yes to this what am I sacrificing and usually it’s me time or family time or who do I actually want to be the yes person for and who actually I don’t need to because there’s loads of other yes people or they can do things themselves so I think that’s and it comes back to the guilt, it goes back to the balance, it’s all connected.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:02)

Love it. Love it. And what do success, balance and happiness mean to you?

 

Donna (44:07)

It’s so interesting, we’re literally just chatting about it. They’re all interlinked. I feel I can’t have one without the other. So I’ll start with balance. If I have balance, and balance is for me

 

energy and presence for the things that are important to me, that means I’m happier. So again, happiness is…

 

finding those joy moments and really being present. So things like you were saying 15 minutes reading a book, but being present and going, this is joy. Or walking along, say holding hands with my youngest and going, this is joy. Like there’s in 10 years time, this won’t happen. So it’s just finding that joy, being present. I wouldn’t have that if I didn’t have the balance to give me that time. And then that’s all success. So success for me is time.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:52)

There you go.

 

Donna (44:54)

For work, because I love what I do, time with family and time for me.

 

Lucy Gernon (44:59)

So it’s all about the time. Love that, Donna. Donna, thank you so much. That was such a lovely conversation. I think we’re very aligned in a lot of ways that we think. It’s been so lovely. Donna and I have been chatting for a long time, so it was great to actually get to catch up. So Donna, if anyone’s listening and they want to connect with you, where can they find you?

 

Donna (45:11)

you

 

They can find us on all the platforms. So we are at Donna Riley, People in Wellness on Instagram, Facebook, website is Donna Riley Wellness and TikTok is Donna Riley Hate Your Wellness.

 

Lucy Gernon (45:30)

Amazing. Well, guys, we linked on his website in the show notes. can catch her there. So Donna, that is it for today, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you all got some valuable tips. If you found the episode useful, I would really appreciate if you would share it with a female leader, colleague or a manager who maybe needs to hear this too. And let’s help us spread the word because we really do need to support women who are going back from maternity leave. So until next time, thank you for joining. See

 

Same time, same place. Bye for now.

 

Donna (45:57)

Thank you