Stop Waiting for Permission: Confidence, Worthiness and Investing in Yourself with Katy McFee

Lucy (00:00)
Welcome back to the Lucy Gernon Show. Today’s conversation is one I think many women in leadership need to hear because despite all of the success, all of your qualifications, and all of your evidence of your capability, so many women, including myself and today’s guests at times, have struggled with one with one thing, which is the feeling of worthiness, feeling like you are good enough, feeling like you’re worthy of success, of recognition, of support, of investing in yourself.

And personally, I see this all the time: women who will spend money on their family and their friends and their teams without even a hesitation, or women who advocate for everybody else, but they forget about themselves in the process. ⁓ and today’s guest is a very, very good friend of mine and a executive coach who is one was once an executive vice president as well, who is an amazing leader in her field. I absolutely adore her. She’s been on the show today. And today, Katie McPhee and I are here to talk all about.

The mindset shifts and the confidence required so that you stop waiting to give yourself permission and start realizing that you are worthy of more. So, Katie, you are very welcome to the show today. Good to have you back.

Katy McFee (01:09)
I am so excited to be back and have this conversation.

Lucy (01:12)
I know, I know. So Katie, let’s just if for anyone who didn’t listen to the last episode of the show, I will link it in the show notes. We had a great conversation all about ADHD and midlife and all of the things. But today’s topic is really focused a lot more on confidence and self worth. So before we get into that, Katie, for anyone who doesn’t know you, do you want to just share a little bit about you and your background?

Katy McFee (01:31)
Sure. So I had an 18-year corporate career. I did work my way up to VP and EVP and I worked in biotech and tech. ⁓ I do love to always share with people that my journey to the top was not a straight line. There was lots of struggles, lots of, you know, wondering if I was even meant to be a leader because I did get stuck and spent a lot of time.

working to get that VP role unsuccessfully for a number of years. So that’s a lot of what I do now is help other women ⁓ to make that transition. And then after 18 years, you know, I truthfully I burnt out a little bit and I no longer felt aligned with what I was doing. And I decided to start a business. And what I do now is I work with women who want to make that leap, director to VP, and maybe who are struggling with why are people not seeing me as that next level leader. So

In a nutshell, that’s what I do.

Lucy (02:27)
Amazing. So let’s just start right there. So what is the number one thing you would say that in your experience you’ve seen that stops women from taking that leap from director to VP?

Katy McFee (02:39)
There’s a couple of things, ⁓ but mindset is absolutely one of them. And it gets in the way in a few different areas. So when we think mindset, we’re like, confidence. So are they not confident? Some of these women are confident. Some of these women are like, no, I feel conf, I know I could do this job, but it people aren’t seeing it. Where mindset creeps in in that instance is the feeling that I always need to be doing. I always need to be producing. My worth is in.

The amount of work I’m pumping out. And that will hold you back from those more senior levels, right? So we know you cannot execute your way to VP. You need to slow down. You need to think, you know, you need to be more thoughtful in terms of how am I spending my time? What am I focused on? Am I spending time in like deep strategic thinking? And for a lot of women, that’s not a habit problem. And they blame their calendars. They think it’s a calendar problem. It’s not a calendar problem.

Lucy (03:35)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (03:37)
Sometimes it’s just giving yourself permission to slow down and to spend some time thinking instead of always doing. So there’s lots of things, you know, this is such a multi-complex challenge for a lot of women, but that is a big one. And I would say the the other place mindset specifically comes in is in the self-awareness, right? So I always say, like, if you don’t know how you’re showing up today, if you don’t have like a good sense of self-awareness into like, who is the leader I wanna be?

Am I showing up as that person? And if not, what is the gap? How are you gonna fill that gap? So that’s a lot of what I work with women on initially.

Lucy (04:13)
Mm.

Hmm. And when you say self awareness, obviously you and I know as coaches what that means. Like how does somebody know if they’re self aware or not?

Katy McFee (04:23)
⁓ it’s such a good question. If you’re asking yourself, you probably aren’t. Right?

Lucy (04:29)
⁓ Katie, am I am I self-aware? I think

I bloody am. I think we overanalyze ourselves to death. I think we’re good. We’re way too self-aware.

Katy McFee (04:35)
We are we’re too self-aware. I use a little

less. I have a a child on the autism spectrum. I’m always like, I need a little more of that. Like, ⁓ so I feel like the ruminating and everything else. But ⁓ no most of my corporate career, I would say I was not very self-aware. That doesn’t mean I wasn’t thinking about how am I showing up or how are people perceiving me, but

Lucy (04:47)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (05:03)
I wasn’t, I hadn’t spent a lot of time thinking about like who is the leader I want to be? How am I showing up in the world? Am I showing up as my authentic self? Right. So self awareness, I think there’s lots of levels of it. I would say the first level is just understanding how am I showing up today and how are people perceiving me? That’s important, but like you can go many levels deeper, as you and I have done, where you’re really diving into who am I as my authentic self? Do I show up in the world? Is that

person or how do I do that more often? And if not, like what is getting in the way?

Lucy (05:37)
Hmm. I love that that whole conversation about authenticity, right? Is it’s such a funny one because I think sometimes people, it’s a corporate thing. I think a lot of you know, corporate, it’s a it was a buzzword for a long time. And I, you know, I talk about it too, authentic leadership and leading authentically. And it sounds like, you know, people say, like, well, like I can’t bring my real self to work because I’d probably get fired if they saw what I was really like at home in certain situations. So I’d love to hear your take a little bit about for you, because I know what I think about being authentic, it’s like it’s huge.

But what what do you think in terms of that piece and what does that mean for you?

Katy McFee (06:12)
That’s so interesting that you’re bringing this up because literally last night I was on a group coaching call, and this was the first question that somebody asked me. They were like, You show up so authentically, like, have you always been able to do that? And like the people were really curious about whether I was able to show up authentically in my corporate career. ⁓ yeah, it is a really, I think it’s a really important topic because many people, many women,

Lucy (06:21)
Wow.

Katy McFee (06:40)
Do struggle with the idea of showing up as their full authentic selves at work. They feel like they can’t. They feel like they have to hide certain parts of themselves or, you know, make themselves smaller or make themselves more polished. ⁓ and I felt that way in certain times of my career. And I am not a polished person. Like, I think that I I try to speak intelligently and you know, I think I’m I’m a good communicator. I’m relatively well put together. I’m not polished though. Like I’ll drop an F-bomb, like, you know, we don’t know.

What’s gonna come out of mouth? And that’s who I am at my core. And for a long time, I thought that meant I couldn’t be an executive or I couldn’t bring that part of me to work. And the truth is, and and and I I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this too. But my thought is if you are not showing up authentically, you are doing yourself and your organization such a disservice. Because it is really hard to show up as the best version of yourself.

Lucy (07:11)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (07:36)
If you weren’t like spending mental energy, like hiding parts of yourself or showing up as someone different or all of these things. And oftentimes what we think we need to hide, people end up loving about us. And so I think I’ve gone through that journey absolutely. There were times in my career, especially earlier in my career, where I was like, I need to like dress super fancy and like I can’t, I shouldn’t, you know, wear big jewelry or whatever. Like I wanted to look, I wanted people to take me seriously. And I thought that meant.

Lucy (07:47)
Yes.

Katy McFee (08:05)
Hiding parts of who I was. I thought I was just like a little too, you know, Canadian sounding or a little too casual or.

Lucy (08:12)
⁓ Well, you

are quite Canadian sounding, I’m not gonna lie. ⁓ But that’s why I love you. That’s why I love you.

Katy McFee (08:18)
And I’m okay with that now.

But yeah, and so it took me some time to really lean into that and just be like, this is who I am. This is what you’re getting. And I actually noticed that was where I really hit a whole new trajectory in my career in terms of the way I showed up, the success I had, the way I was perceived. Like it was all positive change from there. So I’m a I’m a big believer in.

Gate getting that courage to show up as the full version of yourself, because I think it’s good for everyone, especially you.

Lucy (08:51)
One hundred percent. And I I was just gonna I was just thinking as you were sharing that, there’s a story that came to mind that I think might actually help the audience understand, the people who are listening, what that can actually look like, right? So I remember I’d say it was when was it? It was probably ⁓ my god, Matt’s and me. I don’t know, like twelve years ago.

And since I was a little kid in Ireland, Irish dancing is like a really big thing. And actually your mom did Irish dancing, right? So Katie has some Irish heritage. Her mom is Irish as well, right? So you you get the deal with the Irish dancing, okay? And when I was when I was really little, I used to do Irish dancing and I loved it. I was never a champion. I didn’t even, you know, I got to do like the palms and I had the hard shoes for a time and then I stopped and like I never really believed in myself, being honest. I I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed. So I quit like sports, like

People like I’m not actually quite I’m not very competitive because as a child I used to give up because I never thought I could live up to standards and expectations of what was expected, which is really sad as I say that. But anyway, long story short, I remember when in Ireland there was a huge thing when River Dance actually was came out years ago. Was it back in like 2000, maybe even longer, with the Eurovision? I don’t know if you’ve seen the original River Dance performance. If you haven’t, you should look at it on YouTube.

And it was such a movement that all of a sudden that’s when Irish dancing became really popular. So it was probably even longer than that, actually. I’ll have to look it up after this. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. And so I remember like river dance was this huge phenomenon, and I always wanted to dance river dance. I was not an Irish dancer in a in a professional sense, but I always wanted to dance river dance. And I always thought it was a stupid idea because I was like, you know, who am I to dance river dance? Yada yada. So long story short.

I organized a charity event in the company that I worked in for ⁓ the Irish Cancer Society. And as part of that, I really wanted to bring in Irish dancers to is part of the entertainment. And I knew that there was a couple of women who worked in the company I was in who would do that. And I remember I brought them in to dance the river dance for the peop the the the employees who were coming to the event.

And as I was at one of the rehearsals with them, one of them said to me, like, Do you wanna do you wanna do it with us? And I was of course. I was like, No, no, no, no, I can’t do it. Of course, I couldn’t do it. I was trying to be professional, like, and I’m not gonna get up and dance in front of my colleagues. Are you absolutely joking me? Like, you know? But I did, and I I end up doing the I ended up pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And I’ll never forget the night of the event. It was in, you know, it was it was all lights, there was a stage, and

I’m actually gonna cry. The ⁓ the girl who was like leading it, the teacher, she said to me, She said, You need to open this. And I was like, I can’t open it. Go out on the stage by myself. And she was like, You you need to be the opener for this. And it was I did it. I walked out on the stage in front of the people who I knew would judge me, the people whom I knew didn’t like me. Like it was like it was dear in the headlights, but I went, you know what? I’m just gonna do this because it’s just it’s something I’ve always wanted to do. I just kind of went, fuck it. I’m just gonna do it.

And so I went out on the stage and I’ll never forget, I walked out, could see all of their faces. I did like my little intro and the whole crowd like started cheering for me. And I was like, what the hell is going on? And afterwards, ⁓ a couple of people who I thought didn’t like me, right? You and I have talked about how we, you know, like need to be liked, came straight up to me and they were like, I’m so impressed, like, fair play to you for having the courage for doing that. So, long story short, from that moment on.

Because I did something that was so far outside my comfort zone, when I went back into work the next day, I was me. Cause I was like, if they can see me Irish dancing on a stage in a black like short skirt, giving it my all, I can go into work and I can like bridge that piece from who I thought it could be to who I really was. So I would say, anyone who’s listening, like, do something crazy that is so far away from your comfort zone.

And then anything in between that, if you drop the F bomb or you show up wearing something you wouldn’t normally is like totally nothing. So yeah, it was a very, very special moment for me.

Katy McFee (12:53)
I okay, that’s the best story ever, by the way. And I would love to see dance rubber dance. So cool. I’m sure you crush it. Well, and and this is the thing, like it it’s funny because when I was younger, I used to be absolutely terrified to speak in front of people. I remember in my high school class, I had to do you know, you do like public speaking, right? So I was just to do a speech in front of class. And I had my little speech, and a bunch of my of like

Lucy (12:57)
I’m not very good, but I still did my best. I’m actually not bad. I’m actually not bad. Okay.

Katy McFee (13:21)
The guys I knew that were like a grade ahead and some other middle all came in to watch me just like for fun. And I was so mortified. Like I I was never somebody who liked a lot of attention on me. And I just remember in this class reading my speech with my paper in front of my face, beat red, like feeling like I was gonna cry. I was like, I did not want these people to be here. And and so this is so I had this perception of myself that that was who I was, right? Like that I was like timid and shy and

red cheeks and choking and ⁓ and then in university I ended up joining a band, like being in a rock band, like a girls rock band. And I was the lead guitarist and I was also singing backup. I was singing some songs myself. Like I’m gonna tell you, you want to get over stage fright, play music in front of people. Like that is just like so hard. And it was interesting because the next time I got up to speak, I it I think believe my university, like I was presenting some research.

The feedback I got was you’re clearly very comfortable speaking in front of people. And I remember thinking, I am? Like, that’s what they think. But it’s to your point, it’s just a different example of when you can when you can do something crazy or do something bigger than you thought you could, then these everyday moments actually feel much safer, much easier. And you realize that.

Lucy (14:24)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (14:48)
yeah, just like bringing my personality to work is okay. I can do that.

Lucy (14:52)
Yeah. And I think as well, like you said something earlier on about I think like, you know, bringing your bringing yourself to work, but people are afraid of, okay, well, if I what if I bring too much of myself to work, you know, it may may not be a good thing. And in my experience, I personally think, and I want to hear your take on this, is you know, we we talk a lot, especially as business owners, I think we’ve learned a lot in terms of attracting ideal clients and attracting opportunities to us that are right and aligned for us because

Katie and I, I would say we’re both super authentic. Like what you see here is pretty much what goes on in our WhatsApp group. And we show up totally the same. And as a result, like we both get incredible opportunities just from putting ourselves out there online, but they’re aligned opportunities because people know what they’re getting. Whereas if somebody is in work and they are working for somebody that they don’t feel comfortable fully being themselves in front of in terms of like, and whatever that looks like, what would you what’s your opinion on that? Would you, what would you say to that person?

Katy McFee (15:47)
yeah. Well, I mean, the first I remember this when I stepped into my VP role, I started working at an organization. I didn’t really know them very well before I started there. And the first thing that struck me was how much people there showed up as their authentic selves. It was part of the core company culture. And I had never experienced this. And

This company, by the way, it’s now a multi-billion dollar company. It grew super fast, grew super fast while I was there, continued to grow after I left. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I think allowing people to bring their whole selves to work just creates a better result for everyone. Because you see, for example, you see what people are actually good at and you put them in the right roles. Right? People are naturally attracted. Like for, and I totally agree with you. Part of the thing that I’ve loved about having my own business.

Lucy (16:32)
Yes.

Katy McFee (16:39)
And I’ve said this, you know, to people I’ve worked with and in the past is that I have never felt more like my authentic self in everything I do than I have in this business. But I think the important lesson is not go quit your corporate job and start business. You can choose to do that. A lot of us are just so afraid. And, you know, I would say that as I moved up and I gained more confidence in myself.

Lucy (16:55)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Katy McFee (17:06)
I started showing up more authentically and I started getting a much better result. So it’s one of those things that that it’s like, what’s gonna come first? But the sooner you can ⁓ the sooner you can just decide I’m gonna bring my full authentic self to work. The sooner you are going to find the cultures that work for you. You are gonna hire the right people for your teams, you are going to be hired into the right roles. Like one of the things I talk to women about all the time, if you know, let’s say I’m working with women who are

Trying to find a new role at a new company. Okay. So they want to step into their first MVP role or SCP or something like that. I always say, because they’ll ask me questions about like, what if they ask about this? What about if they ask about that? I’m like, at this level, you need to be forthcoming about what kind of leader you are, what kind of culture you like to build, how you like to run your teams. And I’m like, the reason why is you don’t want to get the job if it’s the wrong culture at that point.

Lucy (18:01)
Yes.

Katy McFee (18:02)
your level, right? Like that’s not gonna be good for you and it’s not gonna be good for them. And and so I’m always like just be honest about what do you care about in terms of a company culture because if you really care about open transparent culture and they’re like the the company’s like riddled with politics and whatever and there’s no match, you are better off to not step into that role. So that’s kind of how I equate it to the corporate space. It’s like what roles are you stepping into, what teams are you building, what leadership teams are you working with?

You want those things to be aligned and you want those people, like you want to be hired as your authentic self. And then guess what? You get to show up as that person every day. That’s that’s the problem.

Lucy (18:41)
My God, and like

how freeing is that like? Because I I see women all of the time, women who have, you know, who have worked with me and who have said to me, I’m able to show up now warts and all. And with some of them who have actually gone through that trying to that journey of like what I want to ask you about next, which is like feeling worthy and feeling good enough to be themselves. Because when you feel confident in who you are and you know, you own what you know, you own what you don’t know, and you’re able to fully embrace all of that.

That is when you’re able to so show up authentically. But I I’m thinking of a couple of clients who went through that journey and then they realized actually the company is not a match for my values, for who I really am. It’s why I’m miserable, it’s why I’m not happy. And they have gone on knowing exactly who they are, exactly what they bring to the table, and they have got better roles in better companies. So I think let’s get into the the the worthiness piece because I think a lot of the authenticity comes up from you know masking and

conforming and being a good girl and you know, women we tend to be like this chameleon where we, you know, we wanna please or we wanna okay, so Dave talks like this, so I need to show up a certain way, or Mary talks like this and I need to show up a certain way. Well leadership to me is about you need to lead, not to follow. So what what do you think about that piece?

Katy McFee (19:54)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, when we bring the worthiness thing is so interesting because I am someone who for a lot of my life, this is something I still work on. Have had to work on believing I’m worthy outside of my achievements. And when when you can truly believe that, again, it’s it frees you up.

Lucy (20:13)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (20:20)
To pursue the things you want to pursue, to take a risk over here, to not work yourself to death, like all of those things. And I agree with you that when we are so stuck in that, I think that also pulls us into the cycle of like over-executing, overworking, you know, people-pleasing, doing everything for everyone, not showing up as who we are, not pushing back on things we don’t want to do. Like it just touches so many elements.

Lucy (20:47)
Everything.

Mm-hmm.

Katy McFee (20:48)
And part of this is like is the deep work of first of all recognizing that maybe you have some of these thought patterns. If you’ve never thought about it, like again, I didn’t even think about this stuff until I was like in my 40s. I never thought about who am I? Why do I want the things I want? Why am I so driven to achieve? Like, and then I eventually realized that, it’s because I want people to like me.

Lucy (21:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Katy McFee (21:16)
And then I realized then I did more work and I realized, yeah, people don’t give a shit what I do. Like

Lucy (21:21)
Yeah, people really don’t give a shit.

I give a shit about what you do though. come on. I care, okay? I care. I know what you mean.

Katy McFee (21:25)
Well so the the there’s a very select

small select people in this world who I truly care what they think of me. Right? Like I care about what you think about me. I care what my family think about me. I care what my close friends think about me. But like we often act in the way that where we are so concerned about what like people online, people online, whoever they are, think about us.

Lucy (21:38)
Yeah, I hope you do. I care about what you think about me.

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Katy McFee (21:52)
Or colleagues that you know, you mentioned these colleagues that you didn’t think liked you. Like, are they really the ones you want to be acting to impress? Or do you maybe want to think about the people who actually matter in your life and give a shit about you and love you? Right. And so it is it is some work to do that. And you know, if you if let’s say you’re also ambitious and looking to move up in your career and you’re thinking about stakeholders, like, yes, sometimes you need to care.

Lucy (22:05)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (22:21)
What certain leaders think of you if you want to get promoted, right? In that very specific instance. And that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the thing that happens where we are so concerned with what quote people think, all these people that is like, who are they actually? And that is stopping you from doing the big thing you want to do. Doing that talk in front of a group of people, posting online, going for the promotion, like whatever the thing is. And often when we come down to it and you actually ask yourself, like, who are these people?

that I’m making myself small for it’s like, you know, Susie that I went to high school with, I haven’t spoken to in 15 years. Like, is that the person you really want to be concerned about?

Lucy (22:57)
Yeah.

One hundred percent. And I’m thinking like as you’re saying that as well, I remember for about three years I had a a manager, right? And he didn’t like me. Okay. And like you know what that’s like when you when you want people to like you, like, you know, you’ll do whatever. It’s like it’s horrendous, right? He didn’t give a shit about me and he really didn’t like he just didn’t care. Like I understand whether or not he liked me. But anyway, long story short, I people pleased him within an inch of my life. I thought I did everything, you know, to to

Katy McFee (23:17)
man.

Lucy (23:28)
Do what I needed to do, and nothing kind of seemed good enough. And this is the thing with people pleasing, right? The more you do it, the more you’re gonna do it. It does it never ends because if you people please and you get it right, you get it right this time. It’s like, okay, well, that worked. I got a dopamine hit. I to do more. So it’s like this perpetual cycle. So I did that for a long time and I changed who I was and all of that kind of stuff. And then he left the company. And I was just like, huh? Hang on.

I have just spent three years like trying to make you like me and now you’re gone and I’m still here pretending I’m someone I’m not, not where I want to be in my career. So like that was a huge light bulb moment for me around like just being able to actually realize that the people you’re trying to please, they don’t really care about you, like the people at work. It’s actually you need to start looking, I think, about why you need people please and where that comes from. So that brings me to my next question, Katie, around.

the work and investing in yourself. So like you’ve inv you and I’ve invested a lot of time and money into our development. And I think if I if I had a told myself like seven years ago that I would have invested what I’ve invested in myself now, you know, we’re talking, you know, you know, six figures plus or whatever more, I would I would never have thought I was worthy of investing that kind of money in myself. I would have thought it was a waste of money. I would have thought I didn’t deserve it. I would have thought like what could I get a return on?

And now when I look at myself now versus who I was like five, seven years ago, I the more I invest in myself and give my not not just the money, but the time in me, the better I become. And then the more the results come. So why do you think, I suppose, what was your take first of all when you started this whole journey of personal development and professional development? What were your thoughts on that?

Katy McFee (25:13)
It’s so interesting because similar very similar. Five years ago, it’d be five years ago, I was still in corporate. And I remember knowing one woman who would do things like join masterminds, and there’d be like $10,000. And I’d be like, this woman’s lost her mind. Like, what is she doing? I never really invested in myself in my corporate career. And I think back, and that is one of my biggest regrets.

And I just didn’t know any better. Like I, you know, I I I think we learn that it’s so interesting. I was just, I wrote, I wrote a newsletter about this literally yesterday. ⁓ because I think we learned that, you know, follow, follow the plan. Your manager will develop you, do the corporate training that they offer you, like do all of these things and like the system is gonna work and you’re gonna get to where you need to be. And I did realize at one point in my corporate career that.

Lucy (25:42)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (26:09)
That wasn’t really true. Like I was like, I’m not getting what I need. I’m not getting to the next level. Like, and but I didn’t really know what to do about it. And and yeah, the thought of investing thousands, let alone six figures of, and this was over time. Like, we didn’t do thought. But ⁓ if you had told I would be spending five figures at a multiple five figures at a time in various masterminds and things like that, I would have been like, you’ve zero percent chance that’s gonna be me, right?

Lucy (26:25)
Yeah, over time. Yeah, yeah.

Katy McFee (26:38)
And and so just like you, I didn’t even I never invested in myself at all until I started my own business, where you realize, like, it is on me. There is no one that is going to help, like I need to figure this out. ⁓ and entrepreneurs are really good at investing in the self in themselves. Like some entrepreneurs I know, I’m like, okay, you need to like dial it in a little bit because all you do is join courses, masterminds, this, that, whatever. And I see people spending, you know, more than they’re making practically.

Lucy (26:55)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (27:08)
And but it’s because as entrepreneurs, we do, we understand. ⁓ I put in this dollar, I get 10 back. Like it is really the best return you can make. ⁓ and I remember the very first time I had my business for around a year, and I someone reached out to me on LinkedIn and invited me to a mastermind retreat. And it was maybe like three or four thousand dollars, maybe it’s four thousand.

And ⁓ it was I was gonna have to travel to Mexico for it, and I really wanted to go. And I looked at the other women in it, they had like really big social media followings at the time. Mine wasn’t as big. And I was like, they look so impressive and they have real, you know, thriving businesses. And I’m like, they want me to be in this group. And so I really wanted to go, but I was like, I don’t think I can spend that money. It just feels so indulgent. I think indulgent is the best word. Yeah, I was like, it’s frivolous, it’s indulgent.

Lucy (28:03)
Indulgent, I think so, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katy McFee (28:06)
Indulgent, like dare I spend this? Like I just have my little business. Like it doesn’t matter. And I remember talking to my partner about it, and he was like, listen, you told me you want to build a lifestyle business. So like from a pure business investment perspective, I’m not sure this makes sense. But if you want to go just because like you feel so proud that they invited you, like I’m okay with it.

Lucy (28:27)
⁓

Taylor. Of course he said that. And he’s a CFO guy, so so you know, like he this guy does is actually an analytical dude, so

Katy McFee (28:29)
He’s the he’s a bad. He’s a blast. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. He was like, I get it. If this just makes you feel good, I was like, okay. So, anyways, I went and game changing. Like totally changed the trajectory of my business, of of everything. And ⁓ and actually I was saying even before that, even investing in becoming a coach, like that was one that I really thought a lot about. I was like, do I spend this money? It’s so much money. I never spent that much money on myself. And so anyway, it’s all really it was all really scary at the time.

Lucy (28:54)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (29:06)
But what I realized pretty quickly was that every time I invested, I got like a 10x plus return. And that continues to be true to this day. And so I have, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve just like you, I’ve invested more and more and more over time. And now if you actually added it all together, I don’t even know if I’d want to see that total amount. ⁓ but it’s helped me build the the business I have today. It’s helped me like become a better version of myself. And I do not regret one penny I’ve spent. And if I could go back.

Lucy (29:23)
No.

Katy McFee (29:36)
To talk to corporate Katie a decade ago, especially when I was struggling to get to the next level, I would have been like, you know what, even if you have to like forego something like forego a vacation or take out a loan if you have to, you know, because I really believe I could have gotten to the next level so much faster if I had invested in the right thing. And my business my company that I work for just didn’t have that for me. Like it just didn’t exist there. And I didn’t really.

Lucy (30:02)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (30:05)
Understand the idea of just paying my own hard-earned money to invest in myself outside of. I really thought it was my company’s obligation to pay for my training. And the thing that I realized over time that that I think is so important is that your company does not care as much about your development as you do. They never will, and they shouldn’t, because it’s your career. Like you’re the CEO of your career. If you’ve ever heard someone say that before, and I think it’s so true. It’s like,

It is in your best interest to figure out what you need and then make it happen. And if you are relying on someone else, I’m like, you’re just giving away your power in terms of creating the life and the career that you want. So as you can tell, I’m a little bit passionate about this.

Lucy (30:50)
I I I see that. I see that. But you’re you’re so

right though. But I think, you know, just to go back to what you were saying, I think first of all, which is such an important point that I wish that I knew sooner as well, is, you know, there’s a traditional path for developing your employees, which is, you know, say leaders or whatever, you it’s leadership training, they get an internal mentor, you get an internal sponsor, and then it becomes okay, what course do I need to do? Do I need to do an MBA or do need to do a master’s? Like that, they’re the kind of main things that I hear most. I’m sure you’re nodding away as well.

But what’s missing is the likes of like obviously you and I have similar but different kind of things that we do, even though we laugh at we’re competitors, even though we’re still friends. We are competitors, come work with me though. Don’t mind her, she’s terrible. I know, we’re we’re besties. But no, but seriously, like I would never in a million zillion years have known that anything like what we do exists because it’s not in the traditional education sense. But then it’s like

Katy McFee (31:30)
Yeah.

Lucy’s amazing, we’re gonna lose it, like.

Lucy (31:46)
Hang on, like you’re you’re learning from people who have done who’ve invested all this money to work with all of these experts in different modalities and bringing it all together so that you get the pieces that you’re missing and the accountability and the support. Like in the masterminds we’re in, this is where Katie and I learned to build like products like I have 360 Leaders Love, you have your VP ready program and your community. But like that is not visible in corporates. And I think one thing you said is so important, and I feel the very same as you is you’re putting your your career in their hands.

So if you’re not willing to invest in yourself, it first of all, it isn’t their responsibility. If you if you have a problem, it’s okay to invest in yourself. But I think the first the the part of that that I think a lot of women struggle with in my experience is like is guilt. So it’s like whether it’s if whether it’s a course or whether it’s working with one coach like us or whether it’s you know splurging on something for themselves, there’s all of this guilt comes up. ⁓ but yet

They’re the ones earning the money, they have put in the graft, they have got a re you know, so what do you think the where do you think the guilt comes from?

Katy McFee (32:49)
This is so real. And I don’t know. Like I was thinking about this the other day because there was something I wanted. I don’t know if it was like a shirt or a whatever. But I was I had been like looking at this thing online for like months and months. I hadn’t bought it. And it I can’t remember how much it was. Let’s say it was like $300. And I was like, I don’t know. It’s $300. don’t have to spend it. And then I remember my kid came up and needed whatever. And I just like dropped $500 on him in a second. And I realized I do this all

Lucy (33:14)
I know. Not even on battened eyelids, yeah.

Katy McFee (33:18)
All the time. I’ll be dare I go on this retreat? And then I sign my kid up for summer camp. It’s like three grand for two weeks. And I’m like, okay. I I love providing for my children. I love giving them opportunities. And also, I should be doing these things for myself. I’m the one working hard to get this money. And I think as women, we do this all the time. We invest in everyone before ourselves. I love asking women when women, you know.

It’s interesting when they when women are thinking about working with me, they’re often like, I don’t know what the price, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, you’re gonna make 10x more than this when you step into that next role. Probably more. And but what I love to say is like, if this was for your partner or your kids, would you do it? Usually the answer is absolutely. People are spending multipliers more than that on sending their kid to like a school or a camp or their hockey or their extracurricular or whatever the thing is.

Lucy (34:11)
Yeah.

And then it’s like that vague family vacation that you go on burnt out for two weeks to like just go and do it all over again rather than actually having the tools so you could actually enjoy fifty weeks of the year instead of just two weeks of the year, right?

Katy McFee (34:23)
Yes,

yes, exactly. And like I I really do believe like there’s things that you can invest in that are going to compound over time. Obviously you can invest your money in actual like investments, right? Like in funds and things like that. That will compo compound over time. But one of the big things that we don’t think about that will compound over time is investing in your knowledge and skills. That will compound over time. You will make more money than for the next like 15 years of your career or whatever, like however much you have left.

Lucy (34:44)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (34:52)
That is a real investment that you can make that is gonna pay off multipliers. And we don’t think like that, right? And so this I’m like, the sooner you do this, the longer you’re gonna get the payout for. But yeah, I think I think it’s it really is ingrained in us as women. And I think once I think the first step is even just recognizing that. Because I think oftentimes we don’t even think about it. But when you stop to think about it and you’re like, ⁓ shoot, yeah, like.

Lucy (34:57)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (35:17)
I invest in I spend all this money on my kids, all this money on everybody else, all I put everything else first and I am always last. And I think sometimes as women, we almost like wear that as a badge of honor. This is not a badge of honor. If you are you are burnt out and miserable and like unhappy in your like that is not good for your family either. So

Lucy (35:28)
Yeah, no.

And the thing is

as well, I think that I’ve seen, and I’m sure you see it as well, and I know this to be true for me too, that the better you are, the better everyone is around you. So when you invest in yourself and you’re not as moody and you’re more authentic, if you’re able to be your authentic self and you’re able to lead with confidence, you’re able to show up as as you and actually feel worthy and feel good enough. And you show up like that in work, and then you you’re you’re better in work. Your team see it, your employer sees it, you go home, you’re in bit in a better mood, your kids are not saying.

Mommy, why are you still s why are you sad? Or are you still working tonight? Can you can’t come to this thing? It has this massive ripple effect. So like anyone who I I often say that to women as well, which is sometimes, yeah, we know we you and I know. Like I I’m just thinking of a lady who got promoted recently that worked now. I don’t help women with promotions. That’s not I’m that’s that’s your thing. It doesn’t light me up in in the same way it does for you. Cause for me, I just want women to actually feel freaking good in who they are and do whatever the hell that they want to do with that.

But she texts me and she was like, Lucy, I’ve just I’ve just got a 31% pay increase and like a huge ⁓ in in one in one jump. And she got a huge like equity and and stuff like that as well. And she was like, I didn’t I didn’t do this for the money though. So I don’t know about your clients, but my clients are not driven by money. It’s more about impact and stuff like that as well. So I think it’s really important that first of all, if anyone’s listening and you’re hearing to about you’re listening about the financials, I can guarantee you, like Katie said, as Warren Buffett says, the more you learn.

the more you earn. It’s facts. It’s proven. But what would you say to somebody, like ’cause sometimes the return for me is it’s to s to sleep at night properly, like to not be second guessing yourself. Like to me, that’s like far more valuable than any dollar or euro figure in a bank account.

Katy McFee (37:18)
No, I totally I think the money is the money is great because then it can fund the life you want. But I always say, even when people are thinking about taking a new opportunity, I’m like, don’t do it based on the money in the title. Do it based on like, you know, the culture and the impact you’re gonna have and how aligned you are with your manager, like all of these things, right? Like, are you gonna able to grow and develop? So I think that stuff is oftentimes way more. I mean, take it from the woman who finally landed the dream role with the big.

Lucy (37:28)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (37:46)
salary and all the things and I was miserable and ended up in corporate, right? And and I was actually working for a lovely team. I had a great boss. Our CO was awesome. Like our the leadership team was great. But like those are not the things necessarily that are going to make you happy. Right. So, you know, and and you you I I do want to kind of double down just for a quick second on the idea of it is investing money, but it’s also investing time. And this was one for a long time I did not give myself permission to do.

Lucy (37:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Katy McFee (38:16)
Whether it was doing my morning routine and working out in the morning or going on trips or doing whatever, like I was the one where you know, girls would be going on a trip and I’d be like, I should stay with the kids or whatever. And the more I’ve invested in that stuff, the more I’ve given myself permission. So much so that ⁓ I remember when when I was looking at ⁓ you know, we’re we’re in the mastermind, we go on multiple trips a year, right? We meet up.

And I remember talking to Taylor about it when we were going through the expenses for the business and that type of thing. And I was like, ⁓ this stuff cannot move in terms of expenses. I was like, this is so important to me. Like, if we have to like reduce my salary to make up for it, then we can. But like this. Yeah, I was like, this is like Yeah. But it’s true. It’s like those are the things they fill my cup, they help me become the best per version of myself. I absolutely love it. It’s like, I’m not gonna cut that stuff. I’ll cut something else, but I’m not gonna cut that. And so

Lucy (38:56)
Or you’re gonna get psycho Katie, the wife. You will get psycho kitty. It is so true.

Katy McFee (39:14)
Yeah, it’s like those are the things that are so important to me. And I really leaned in. Like I do, I do a morning routine every single day. I prioritize it. Yes, sometimes I’ve got a kid sitting in the gym with me, but for the most part, I I get to do it. and and I do trips by myself every, you know, and meet up with you ladies or you know, do something else. But like I invest in that stuff and I have to say, like it just allows me to be a a better business owner, a better leader, a better parent.

A better partner, all all of the things.

Lucy (39:45)
Yeah, because if you were happy, everyone’s happier around you as well, isn’t it? Like, and I’m curious then, like just to I want to talk a little bit about about mindset as well, kind of going back to to self talk. So you know, and I’ve told you before, and I know we have similarities in that, in that sense, that like I never felt good enough. I never felt worthy. And I had tried CBT, I had tried obviously podcasts and therapy, and they did help to a certain degree. But obviously, when I found coaching, we’ve spoken about this before and learned all the psychology tools and like all of those things, it was amazing.

Katy McFee (39:48)
Yeah.

Lucy (40:14)
But what has kind of helped helped me a lot re like in in recent years is positive self-talk. So I want to hear a little bit more about the role of like affirmations and mindset and positive self-talk from you because I’m a little bit woo. And sometimes, you know, you’re a little bit woo as well. But sometimes some people hear like, you know, like I actually jotted down some of my favorite ones that I I just wrote them down, so I’d have them, but I would say things to myself like, I am enough exactly as I am today.

I am prepared, capable, and qualified. I am worthy of having it all. I deserve to invest in myself. I am good enough and I have always been good enough. And I’ve recorded my voice saying those those affirmations and I play my own voice to myself sometimes because I want it to be my voice, not somebody else’s.

And I find that that has just helped me so, so, so, so, so much. I’ve actually turned it into a course for ⁓ I’d actually link it in the show notes. It’s a four-week affirmation course of the things that I said to myself to make sure that I continue to feel worthy. Because honestly, if you have really deep ingrained beliefs about yourself that you’ve had for childhood, like I’ve done like like you, so much work on myself. But if I don’t do the work and I don’t feed my brain positive stuff, I

get go back into into old patterns. So I’m curious, like for you, where affirmations come in, mindset work, all of that.

Katy McFee (41:33)
Mm-hmm. I’m a fan of affirmations every single day. So I do a couple of things. So one in the morning I typically meditate. I sometimes use an app that you I know you sometimes use too, ⁓ which is more manifesty, positive thought, you know, breath work type stuff. I also like doing affirmations before bed at night and like

I will write them out and then I’ll say them to myself a couple of times. ⁓ and even like in the middle of the day, because I I agree with you, it’s like one of those things that you can have like a really good basis and you can be feeling really good, but if you stop doing it, you can kind of revert, you can start to like feel more negative. So I do think it’s something that’s really important as like a daily practice. And hey, I was I was not woo when I was moving in from like corporate space into coaching, I was like, who are these people?

Lucy (42:24)
I know.

Katy McFee (42:24)
I was

like, what? And I actually remember looking into the science of affirmations. So I was like, is this legit? Because I’m just picturing like Tony Robbins or Oprah like yelling these things. And I’m like, I don’t know this for me. The science behind affirmations is really strong. Because if you think about what it does, it starts to rewire your subconscious thought patterns, right? And so what happens, right? Our thoughts come from the belief system that we have created for

We can actually shift our belief system through affirmations, through positive self-talk, through all of this stuff. And so then when an event happens and you have a thought, which is oftentimes self subconscious, at least initially, ⁓ that is determined by your belief system. And so affirmations are so powerful. Whether you are trying to shift how you show up in the world or how you feel about yourself, you can use affirmations to do that because it shifts your subconscious and then

you know, it’s like thoughts, feelings, actions, outcomes. So as you shift those subconscious thoughts, you are gonna shift your thoughts, feelings, actions, outcomes. And so that’s the power in it. It it is actually like legit and the science backs it up. ⁓ so I’m that was convincing enough for me. So I was like, okay, I’m gonna give this thing a shot. And I’ve pretty much never gone back from it. It’s it is one of those things I I try to do it every single day. You know, there’s the odd day that I’m really exhausted and I go to bed and I don’t do my affirmations. But usually if I go a few days and I don’t

I don’t do it. I’m like, no, I need to bring this back. ⁓ and to your point, there’s lots of ways you can do it. You can have an alarm in your phone, you can write them out, you can, you know, morning, night, whatever works for you. But I find that if I’m starting to feel negative or, you know, I’m struggling or whatever, I will essentially tell myself what I need to hear. And that’s gonna be different for different people, right? Like, so it might be like,

Lucy (44:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Katy McFee (44:13)
you know, I’m feeling healthy and good in my body, or I am like a confident leader, or I speak my truth. Like what is what is the thing that you really want to work on in terms of how you’re feeling or showing up in the world? And then you create your affirmations around that. And it is, it is really powerful. I notice a concrete difference when I do that.

Lucy (44:33)
Isn’t it interesting though how we look outside of ourselves so much when actually it’s all internal, right? Like all of that stuff. Cause like, you know, you can listen to affirmations from other people and, you know, all of that, but ultimately you know ⁓ you know what you need you need to tell yourself. Like I have a tool that I use at my clients, I’ll tell you what it now. Anyway, it’s called rants to power, where you you look at your rants, which are your repetitive automatic negative thoughts.

And then, like, you basically reframe them, you flip them into power statements, which is positive, optimistic words energetically repeated. And when I do that exercise with my clients and I see what their like their power statements are, they’re no, they’re so much more specific than the generic affirmations that you get because you have to feel an emotional connection and it has to do something to your brain. If you don’t feel an emotion when you’re saying that those things yourself, it doesn’t work as well. So, like if you’re like, I am worthy.

Like if you’re saying it like that, it’s not gonna work. You have to really believe it and be like, I am worthy, you know? And it takes kind of work to get to that. So I’m wondering, Katie, just as we’re we’re we’re gonna wrap up shortly, but I do wanna ask you, maybe that maybe you’ve already answered this, but if there’s anyone listening today who struggles with confidence, perhaps it’s public speaking or just believing that they’re good enough to progress to the next level, whatever it is, what is one shift or practice that you would recommend that they begin with?

Katy McFee (45:55)
I mean, I w one thing I love actually is the practice of unpacking your limiting beliefs. And you can pair that with affirmations. Because usually I would say affirmations, affirmations and gratitude are probably my two favorite, I’m gonna say, habits for shifting your mindset. ⁓ and specifically for things like limiting beliefs and confidence and that type of thing, I think affirmations are maybe my favorite. ⁓ but to get more specific, if you are struggling with limiting belief.

An exercise I love is to like, let’s say, think of a limiting belief that you have, write it out. I do this with my clients all the time. ⁓ think about where did this belief come from? Because limiting beliefs, by definition, will have come from some event or events in your life that would it became a limiting belief either because of the frequency or ⁓ the intensity, okay?

So try to unpack where that came from, why it became a limiting belief. you were so mortified when your teacher said this to you, or whatever, your parents used to always do this or whatever. ⁓ then start to challenge that limiting belief, which is, would this hold up in a court of law? What would somebody arguing against it say? Is there anyone in the entire world who would not agree with this? Whatever it is. I’m dumb because I didn’t go to college or I’m whatever, right? Whatever the limiting belief is, ask yourself who would disagree with this and what would they say? And then

This is where you turn into an affirmation. So that then you reframe that. So let’s say, for example, one of my big limiting beliefs, and I’m gonna say a really vulnerable one, was I am annoying. That was a limiting belief I had because my brothers told me I was annoying all the time. And then a kid at school in grade seven told me I was annoying. And it like hit me right to my core. I also had a crush on this kid, so you know, that didn’t help.

Lucy (47:45)
⁓

intensity moment then.

Katy McFee (47:47)
Exactly. But it’s okay because he tried to date me later and I said no. So I would just I just want the world to know that. Sorry, Ryan, you missed your time. Anyway. Look at me now. ⁓ just kidding. So so that was my limiting belief. And I didn’t even realize it for a long time, but I was it was under the surface, you know. And when I finally realized, I was like, yeah, I do have this limiting belief. And it causes me to play small in a lot of instances and not speak up and not be fully myself because I think I’m too much.

Lucy (47:51)
Yeah, Ryan, you missed out.

Katy McFee (48:16)
I flipped that to the right people love my energy. Because it’s true. The right people actually love my energy. They want to work with me. They want to be my friend. They want to hang out with me. Maybe some people still think I’m annoying. Like some people, I might not be their energy. That’s okay. I’ve got a lot of energy. I am not for everyone. But I am for certain people. And so I shifted it to this statement that I do believe is true. I don’t always say just take your limiting belief and

Make it the opposite because if that doesn’t feel true to you, to your point, if you’re saying it, but it doesn’t feel true to you, it’s not gonna work. But I do believe that the right people love my energy because they tell me all the time. So that became my reframe. And then that became an affirmation that I used. And so when you take that reframe and then start using it as an affirmation, it can be really powerful in terms of overcoming some of these limiting beliefs that are holding you back from.

Lucy (49:05)
⁓

Katy McFee (49:15)
Doing the thing, speaking in front of people, taking the leap or whatever. Yeah.

Lucy (49:20)
Amazing. Amazing. Katie McPhee. Thank you so so much for coming on the show today again. I’m so excited that you’re back, guys. I hope you enjoyed that conversation from Katie and I will link to her website in the show notes. Katie is number one in the world at helping women who want to become V VPs. So if you are looking for a promotion, I can highly recommend Katie. She’s an unbelievable energy. She is absolutely fantastic and she’s one of my best friends. And I love you so much and I can’t wait to see you again soon.

Katy McFee (49:45)
I love you so much. Thank you for having me.

Lucy (49:47)
You are so welcome. So, guys, one thing I want you to just really take away from today’s episode is this is that confidence will grow when you take action. It is okay to invest in yourself. It is okay to go back and do the work on and for yourself. Because if you’re better, everyone around you is better. And next week we’re going to be talking about five signs that self-doubt might quietly be sabotaging your leadership career. So come back again next week, same time, same place. Bye for now.